Bitcoins - Or Why Has My Graphics Card Gone Up In Price?

It isn’t? Who switched? The reader or the writer? I think I’m reading this thread differently. But anyway…

I don’t think it’s odd. Crypto currencies kind of put things in perspective, for people. Dealing in imaginary values is indeed nothing new. Just look at the whole stockmarket, that deals in values created by rumors and suggestion. To me that’s just gambling…
But we are used to that and other invisible values. Who ever gets to see their paycheck, these days? As you say, it all happens in a server at the bank.

Are you made to defend…? You lost me.
AFAIK we are all discussing this. Differences of opinion is to be expected.
What one poster considers to be true isn’t necessarily so for everybody else.
So what if someone doesn’t agree with you. :slight_smile:

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Fark Cryptocurrencies and the horse they rode in on!
:wink:

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duty_calls

The pursuit of truth is the noblest of all human pursuits. The elimination of stupidity is… well a good second :wink: Keep on keepin’ on @sobek, you might just accidentally enlighten one of us pigheads.

Cetero senseo pecuniae occultae excrementae bovam sunt.

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You guys are way above me here, but from from my average joe, blue-collar, un-sophisticated POV, some random thougts:

The US dollar (in my case) has been, essentially, fiat currency for decades - my understanding is it hasn’t been backed by anything physical (rare, and thus the ‘angle’) since…hmm, the late 60’s or early 70’s?. It is, and has been for a long time however, deemed legal for use in transactions.

When I first noticed BC (a decade ago, or more?) it looked like, essentially, someone convincing a bunch of others it was a good idea. I briefly thought of gambling $500 on it just for fun - like the stock market I was investing in, a gamble – a blue-collar dude like me had few choices but to trust in that system for long-term wealth accumulation; apply yourself, live within your means; save for the future and hopefully gain on those savings by investing in the ‘system’ == not born rich or particularly bright.

But I decided I’d rather save the $500, that I worked to acquire, for later. BTW, my G2 will be here tomorrow :slight_smile:

Once businesses started accepting it we, in my opinion, turned a corner (didn’t Telsa do this, not sure, among others). More likely BC was exchanged for US Dollars, which tells me something too.

If one day the majority decide BC is, somehow, [more] “worth it”, what happens? Lot of, shall we say, momentum behind the existing fiat currency.

BC has always seemed more of a get-rich-quick thing; people love the idea of doing nothing and getting something (there have always been stock market investing schemes too; watch a few episodes of…gosh what was it called?..oh, American Greed). Witness the seemingly constant stream of people in/out of mini-marts to buy scratchers and lotto cards. That will never go away.

If BC crosses some threshold of popularity/widely accepted value, things change. People hate change. Loath it.

Not directly related but, an old guy once told me, when I was young of course, that, “something is worth what someone is willing to pay”. I didn’t really care for this person (his personality) but I understood; he was correct. Be it legal tender, a vacant lot, flock of sheep, or something more artificial – a ‘digital’ flock of sheep?.

Despite which side you are on, a good, open-minded, debate is healthy - makes you think, and thinking is good. Critical thinking.

As for the consumption of power: I feel a tad hypocritical on this as a consumer of natural resources. But we should try to be smarter about it.

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The idea behind bitcoin as i see it wasn’t some kind of ponzi get rich quick scheme, for me it is more about the application of federalization (or decentralization if you will) to currency. Bitcoin was devised as a currency without the need of a state to govern it.

As we have come to learn however, there are issues with how it solves some of the technical problems involved (and issues with how people use it). Ethereum 2.0 will try to solve some of the technical issues. We’ll see how that goes, there’ll be more versions in the future. We never get things close to right the first time, maybe we’ll never get it right. The tool that is cryptocurrency however isn’t intrinsically good or bad, just as it’s not guns that kill people…

Or get thrown out at some point. :see_no_evil:

I don’t have a messiah complex and i don’t mean to offend any of you people. I’m just used to a culture where people aren’t coy with their scrutiny, but that goes both ways.

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Oh, yeah, I didn’t mention that. Do recall thinking it was a worthy goal. These kinds of major changes can get ‘messy’ as you eluded to.

Oh boy…
I agree though. To over-simplify: I feel most of our problems are cultural ones. “Culture creep” I call it; there’s less friction in the wrong direction as it tends to assuage our darker traits.

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Cub Crafters accepts BC as payment for my bucket list airplane. Having said that, you wouldn’t want to buy your Carbon Cub today. BC is taking a beat-down.

A really close friend of mine bought some BC when it was new and sold it when the price reached $1100. I asked him last night at dinner did he regret getting out then. He said that in hindsight, his investment would be worth $500 million had he held on to it. But continued that he had netted over $1 million and he had put half of that in each of his 2 son’s education fund (now worth $750k each). Their college is paid for.

EDIT: Yesterday, El Salvador President, Nayib Bukele, proposed to make bitcoin legal tender in his country.

I remember when it reached $600 thinking it was madness. Now I view it as an extremely volatile investment, but have heard enough smart people mention it as an appreciating asset (it’s not really a currency) compared to US fiat currency, which depreciates 2 % annually, that IMHO it’s here to stay.

Not investment advice, just throwing some alternate ideas on the table.

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I didn’t mean it like that, just that tools are ambiguous.

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I got it, and get it. No worries here.

Yeah, and why I wonder “what if” I’d actually dropped that $500 back about 2012-ish. Oh, well.

Money is necessary, not defining.

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I’m not sure what to think of that. It could go very badly.

Although I do believe that to be true, the guy behind it all probably has a BC or two, don’t you think?

And this is what scares me. I know, it’s not rational. But then again, fear isn’t always rational. Gone are the days of the Fort Knox gold reserve, guaranteeing the USD.
Come to think of it. Guaranteeing a state currency using a pretty but rather useless rare metal. How was this accepted? I think crypto currency is rocking the perception of value. But it is just a perception. Again, just look at the stock market. A stock value can raise or fall just due to a perception that it will… It is incredibly interesting.

Yeah, I got that wrong. The President is proposing to make it his country’s legal tender. Whether he is right or wrong, the fact that it is being considered is significant

Every time I’ve had this thought, over the last few decades, I “change the channel” in my head :slight_smile:

…or just breathe deeply and reflect on human history. Which only helps a little.

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Near the end was interesting, under: Significant implications for U.S. companies and individuals

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If not for any other reason, I think that states should stay out of it until the technology is mature.

A currency is defined as an accepted means of payment. To put it in another way, it is a medium for exchange for goods and services.

I like the latter definition best, because “medium for exchange” is actually very descriptive.

Consider the below scenario, which is basically the simplest form of currency requirement:

I grow more potatoes than I need. I want some carrots to complement my potato meal. The carrot grower doesn’t like potatoes, so we can’t do a straight swap (a barter). Currency solves this issue – we accept it as a medium of exchange, because the carrot guy can then go and use the currency I gave him to buy whatever he prefers over potatoes.

So in the above example, the currency doesn’t have “value” in itself – it’s the work that went into potato and carrot growing that created value and the currency is utilised to handily transfer that value from one guy to the next.

The trouble is – if you use something that’s common and easy to find / create more of, it doesn’t work very well as currency. If you used pebbles as currency, anyone a few pebbles short can just walk over to the nearest beach and top up the purse. Hence, smart people from long time ago figured out that you need rarity to mitigate the issue. First they used metal ingots, with weight and purity being the determining factors for value, then they moved on to early coins and bimetallic monetary systems (silver and gold).

Eventually they figured out that hauling all that coin around was a bit cumbersome and they came up with banknotes – the rarity was still there because the banknotes were issued by the state and were difficult for the laymen of the time to reproduce with sufficient accuracy.

In the most simplified terms, that’s still where we are with traditional currency: the issuance of currency is controlled by the state and there is rarity because you can’t personally introduce more units of currency into the system.

Now, cryptocurrency doesn’t introduce anything truly new to the above. It is a medium for exchange and the creation process introduces the rarity necessary for the medium to be usable.

The difference is that in the early stages of any cryptocurrency, you can personally create more units and the effort required is reasonable (no longer the case with Bitcoin, I believe)…and there’s no limit to introducing more currencies, so there’s always the allure of being among the first speculators and making exponential returns. I assume that’s why it’s so popular…that, and the fact that there’s no governance, which seems to attract people, in particularly young people with less interest in traditional money markets / economics, and potentially an anti-establishment attitude.

The thing is, though, there are very, very valid reasons why financial markets authorities exist in the world. They pursue to prevent practices and procedures that are unfair and allow for powerful market players to manipulate things in their favour (I know…they are not perfect, there’s still massive unfairness in the system and I’m all for taking a hard look at how to fix the system…but that’s a separate conversation).

In simple terms, we’ve had a few hundred years to work out what you definitely shouldn’t be allowed to do in currency market, because back in the day some cunning tulip traders got away with it and it wasn’t a good thing. We basically implemented a rule book based on those lessons.

Crypto has none of those safeguards in place. It’s like driving a fast, really unreliable car with no seatbelts or airbags. It’s great until you crash and ruin your spine, then it’s not great. I’m not saying that playing with the stock market or FX has particularly good seatbelts or airbags, but at least there’s road rules in place so a random huge truck can’t come and drive right over you at will.

Now, I don’t particularly personally care about the volatility piece – you want to bet on dog races, go right ahead…but unless you’re actually a trained professional markets dealer, if you are winning at crypto, consider yourself lucky, not good. Sorry if that’s hurtful but it is true.

The pieces I do care about are the environment and organised crime.

As noted previously in this thread, crypto is basically terrible for the environment by design. Whether we like it or not, the reality is that the world is burning and the last thing we need is spending energy in alternative currency creation when we already have working mediums of exchange in place. It’s basically no different to buying oil company stock in hopes of short term returns and disregarding the environmental cost.

Even if you don’t care about the environmental impact, consider that organised crime absolutely loves crypto. An alternative accepted means of payment that isn’t controlled by government? That’s like manna from heaven if you are in the business of doing business on the other side of the law…and organised crime fuels things like methamphetamine distribution which is truly, unequivocally a really bad drug.

People playing with crypto are in it for a profit, and I can’t blame a guy for wanting to get ahead…but there’s absolutely a price to pay and that’s a) the energy bill and b) supporting a medium for financial transactions for bad people.

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Should there be a badge for posts that are so well argued and with such logic, that they are thread killers? :grinning:

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Reminds me of one of the later Hitchhiker’s Guide books where the ship of middle management losers crash lands on proto-Earth and decides to use leaves as currency.
They declare that they are now rich, but to keep it that way they need to burn down all the forests to prevent more leaves from being grown and devaluing their fortunes.

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