DCS: A10C

Question: How often were A-10s actually engaged by those modernized SA-6s? Were they shot at often by the Kubs? Were the Kubs able to guide their missile through intercept only to be outmaneuvered by the A-10? Did the A-10s survive any SA-6 hits? We can discuss A-10s operating with near impunity over isolated TACSAMs in Kosovo, but if the SAMs were not able to effectively engage, that’s more demonstrative of an effective SEAD game plan than the inherent virtue of an airframe. Investiture of a couple hundred HARMs to keep the enemy’s heads down is fair compromise to save aircraft.

Exactly. If we’re not expecting the Warthog to play footsy in the high threat environment, then what does the A-10 offer in the low threat environment that an A-29 does not? For every example of an A-10 shirking off a MANPAD, there’s a counter example of one getting either shot down or permanently grounded by one. Why are we paying the A-10 premium when two dudes in an up armored trainer with a TGP and a couple of bombs can deliver the same performance, cheaper?

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Because your Congress loves having a flying meme.
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Point was already made…

They were shot at by SA-6s during the rescue of Vega 31, though no missiles came close to their positions. There may have been other instances of SA-6s fired against A-10s, but I would have to review more material to find all cases.

You’ve kinda made my point about the A-10 with regard to the HARM. If that’s all it takes to allow aircraft to operate, then that’s a pretty damn good tradeoff.

For starters, a bigger gun and a larger bomb load. The A-10C also has a greater variety of munitions and PGMs available. In addition, the A-10 is also more durable and the number of losses the A-10 has suffered to MANPADS and AAA is quite low – once again, the probability of getting hit is greatly increased in the CAS mission, which is why the Air Force doesn’t want to do it. In ODS, A-10s ran nearly a quarter of the entire sorties flown by the USAF; about 8,000 sorties. Of those sorties, 14 instances resulted in aircraft damage, and of that damage, 6 were lost. That’s pretty remarkable from a numbers perspective, considering they were performing some of the more dangerous aerial missions. Considering that the next absolute loss was all the way to OIF, with everything being damage in between that was repaired, and that’s an exceptional track record.

Comparing the two, the A-10C is faster, better armed, better armored, and more capable. It’s really no contest; it is a more complex and more expensive aircraft, after all. The A-29 is a much lighter, much simpler airframe that started as a trainer. Now, if you’re asking which is better for COIN, of course I’m going to say A-29; that’s a smart move, on the whole (outside of drones). The A-10 just brings more firepower to the table, which is very nice for a prolonged engagement (see the Battle of Jugroom Fort for a notable example as to why this can be handy; long story short, an A-10A with a full load of 30mm was able to remain on station for the duration of the battle and provide critical support and fire suppression). A good mix of both aircraft would be ideal for the CAS mission, but that’s not important enough for the Air Force to justify the expenditures.

The Air Force desperately wants the funding for the CAS mission, which is why they keep insisting other platforms can do it. This is especially true if they can do it with a cheaper platform like the A-29 – and which I’d be all for, if they commit to it. That means more dollars freed up for other programs, like the F-35, so in their minds, the ends justify the means. That’s why the Air Force seems to have a habit of lying to congress and subsequently getting caught for it. If they had a solid argument, I’m pretty damn sure that congress would axe the A-10 and let them do something different with the money – the A-10 doesn’t represent a lot of jobs or huge budgets, but the F-35 does, which is music to congress’ ears.

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My major contention for near peer/peer conflict is having enemy air superiority assets actively trying to gain and maintain air superiority that have a chance of doing it. Really we haven’t faced this since WW2. As noted highly aggressive SEAD/DEAD campaigning can allow for very active work by most platforms. Also operation Allied Force would be vastly different than fighting a committed adversary with similar (or greater) force allocations in a ground campaign. A Soviet Guard army crossing into Western Germany changes the operational loss metrics a bit. Suddenly the question is not how to avoid aircraft and crew losses, it’s how to most effectively trade them for time and distance.

Fighting against say a resurgent Russia or against China is a very different picture than bombing Yugosloiva. In short, we may have to commit air assets that are not particularly survivable to achieve ground gains, or maintain what we already have. In that threat environment even 5th generation aircraft may not be particularly survivable so legacy aircraft will have it worse. Yes we have historically managed to avoid this through MASSIVE SEAD/DEAD campaigns against an enemy who was unable put up fighters to stop us from doing so. What happens when we can’t do this? The IAF got hammered hard in the opening days of the Yom Kippur war under these constraints, why should we expect to see different results?

I’m in complete agreement that the A-10C is a vastly better overall platform than the A-29 or the AT-6. No question on that. I do support that LAAS/LAR program though, as it offers a medium ground and some other benefits. The biggest to me is that we can train much less developed nations to use it to generate a local airforce capable of handling COIN missions and get our planes of out there. Secondly it’s much cheaper to operate, which in theory makes it possible to deploy a lot of them to lower threat environments to provide more CAS opportunities.

-Jenrick

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There is a note in the newsletter today about the pit getting updated, which is good news to me. The textures are somewhat low res compared to the newer modules, a testimate to how well done the hornet/harrier etc. pits are.

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Also the A-10C cockpit is older than a number of people I know :smiley:

Glad they’re touching it up.

I think this is where the disconnect happens with a lot of folks, as a matter of perspective: you have those who say that COIN and low-tech conflicts are not the future, that they won’t happen very often, and that preparations must be made to both equip and train for a huge fight against an enemy that has the capability to challenge a modern military; then you have those who believe that COIN has been and always will be the de-facto standard of warfare for the foreseeable future, with a potential ODS or Allied Force type conflict here and there sprinkled in between. There’s very little compromise between the groups which makes things even more ridiculous, because there really is room at the table for everyone.

I’m not going to deny that fighting China or Russia on strictly conventional terms would be a very rough fight, even for modern assets; given simulators like DCS, we can get a pretty good idea just how difficult it is to fight an enemy with such capabilities. At the same time, we often don’t take into account the logistical side of the house, which represents a huge monkey wrench in all capabilities, including advanced aircraft like the F-35. Tankers, ELINT, transports, AWACS – our entire operations surround these aircraft, not advanced fighters like the F-35 and F-22. We know this and so do our enemies, and because it’s very difficult to replace these aircraft, utility of them in a conflict zone is going to be complex, to say the least. That will put a damper on all aerial operations, even more so for a conflict with an enemy like China, where there is unlikely to be a lot of friendly ground to operate from.

Assuming there is some friendly ground to operate from, the small resources that an A-10 takes to keep running is a huge advantage, and while their usage may demand a high number of losses, such is inevitable in this scenario. The important factor is an A-10 will be there when the F-35 is waiting for its ALIS to quit bugging out and throwing up false positives. And I’m sure the Air Force will be plenty willing to sacrifice A-10s (and other aircraft) while keeping expensive F-35s well away from the action. We can argue about how good an A-10 will be if they’re getting shot at, but even that has inherent value – sort of like setting up an ambush with a KC-135 as bait.

From my perspective, such a conflict is extremely unlikely because it damages all nations, not just the belligerents. Neither China nor Russia has the reasons or inclinations to start a shooting war, especially as their economies and quality of life improves. It’s the same for the USA; nobody wants blackouts, censored communications, etc. in such a widespread conflict. There’s too much for everyone to lose and while there’s always big words being traded by generals and politicians, one has to look beyond the words to see what their meaning is. For example, much of the debate about the A-10 is not based on the Air Force wanting to get rid of it or the mission, but trying to leverage the popularity of it to get a larger budget for everything else. The people at the top know what the A-10 does and how it helps them achieve their goals, and the hope was that by threatening to take that tool out of the toolbox, they could strongarm the people into giving them what they wanted.

I firmly believe that a light turboprop is essential for operations, namely because it helps to alleviate some of the stress on the more advanced fleet. The past 20 years have taken a major toll on the Air Force’s inventory, and because they were so foolhardy about lack of maintenance for their existing equipment in favor of future F-35 and F-22s, they have a crisis on their hands. One might note that the Army, despite having the old designs of AH-64s and UH-60s, continue to operate and upgrade these airframes, even though they’re old by Air Force standards. This is because Army aviation knows full well that they are highly unlikely to be getting new airframes anytime soon, and thus have taken steps to ensure that what they have will last well into the future. Had the Air Force taken the same stance with their own fleets, I strongly suspect there would be less controversy about the F-35 and F-22.

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Are they going to remove Starforce from it for the Steam version?

No clue.

That’s really the only thing holding me back from the A-10C and other modules right now, but the AV-8B has enough to do that I’ll probably be busy with it for the foreseeable future anyways.

I’m not following. Are you against starforce or something? Never had a problem with it.

I was one of those who had optical drives fail thanks to the Starforce DRM from Flaming Cliffs for LOMAC. I lost two drives in quick succession back in '08 from it.

I understand your hesitancy now, but I’d say those issues have been left in decades past.

I did some quick googling, and it seems that Steam itself is more intrusive, requires more permissions than the DRM in the modules today. I don’t use an optical drive, so I can’t say for certain, but I’m fairly certain you are safe to proceed.

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Has more to do with the principle of it rather than any technological fears. The company behind Starforce was very, very, very belligerent to users who came to them and asked for support; they accused every person who had a real, proven problem of being a pirate, criminal, etc. For that reason, I refuse to lend any potential support to such a software developer.

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