Dynamic campaigns - why can't they do it?

Skimming over most of this and its awesome reading, it is interesting to see amateurs from BMS have managed to squeeze 64 bit out of Falcon 4 and have an option for 64 bit in the install now.

IF BMS can do this, why cant Lockheed Martin under their umbrella? this is something LH have always hinted at but never get quite round to doing, instead we have long winded changes that maybe change developer influence and add on work, Prepar 3D v 3 needs a bit of work for everyone to get a clean install these days and thats not moving forward at all.

I honestly think the company Lockheed Martin are corrupt and like to milk their projects for maximum profit ,I think its fair to say the actual F-35 Aircraft is a bit overdue, this is not an anti American statement, the UK are still waiting for carriers to host F-35’s we cant afford. … for sure LM’s involvement in FSX has been a milking process as well.

Thankfully there are other company’s besides LM who look at what FSX can do now … Dovetail for EG.

In my many challenges to modern flight sim developers … I fail to see why they pay much heed to Lockheed Martin at all? is it the brand name? look at Dovetail for where to take the FSX/Flight engine I’d say…

Although this is often a world-changing perspective to some, it’s actually NOT considered corrupt for businesses to try to make a profit. In some really radical circles, the ability to make a profit is actually considered a trait of a successful business. Crazy, isn’t it?

BMS, however, isn’t a business, it’s a group of hobbyists spending their own effort to contribute to the community. They are not looking for a fiscal return on investment, nor do they have shareholders to appease, employees to pay, pensions to fund, or contracts to win.

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Indeed - the no doubt thousands of hours that have gone into the development of BMS iterations is done for a hobby and enthusiasm…which does not pay bills if you are a company. In fact, it is a perfect example of exactly WHY some of these things aren’t done…they aren’t easy or cheap to do.

BeachAV8R

Sorry for being a bit rough around the edges, politicly wise there … I’d hate to lose access to this great resource of knowledge and enthusiasm.

I don’t know what to say really? I’m an RAF brat, meaning I grew up with my now late dad’s tours, saw many Aircraft including a tethered Harrier doing ground tests and more.

I’m guessing this is about my comments on LM:? Fair play, but UK taxpayers do pay them as well and I will admit I’m not so sure the F-35 is a good idea? Single engined naval aircraft have always have less options … if only we had chosen the FA -18 Hornet, now that would fit my tax paying bill perfectly, perhaps too the Rafele? Our Typhoon is a more single purpose minded machine and not suited or designed for carrier operations.

Once again, sorry if I’ve offended anyone, that was not my intention and not what I set out to do so.

This is a good discussion and I hope I’ve not spoiled it.

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piper
May 28

My first flightsim experience was DiD’s EF2000. It had a dynamic campaign and was wonderful.
My second flightsim was Falcon 4 and it had a dynamic campaign, and thanks to the BMS folks, it’s still wonderful…
Now, imagine DCS with one.

I know it’s a difficult task, but why is it any more difficult than playing against an AI chess opponent?

My thinking is to start a company that offers dynamic campaign engines. Just like folks do that license graphics engines.

I think it’s doable breaking down the problem (war) into manageable, abstract entities with strict rules using OOD principles and offering a flexible API. Anyone interested?

Absolutely, few years back, good few years back actually it became obvious i as a bit of a flight sim nut totally agree ith the Chess nut to crack too, I play chess a lot and a deceptively deep game to play … I’ve got a saved game from a while back, winning " and still don’t see it? I love Chess, absolute brilliant strategy game.

Programming a chess game with a decent AI isn’t awful, but then there are only six different types of gamepieces and a total of 64 places they can possibly move to, not considering each piece’s restrictions on motion and attack. The game is also turn-based and has one single objective: take out the opponent’s king.

This is not at all representative of a real battlefield which has dozens of different types of units, practically infinite options of motion for each, varying attack types, time-varying objectives and priorities, is not turn-based, etc., etc., etc. All those nuances (and all those I didn’t even mention or consider) make delivering a believable and playable dynamic campaign very difficult.

I am quite sure that if you were to create a decent dynamic campaign engine that works with even one simulation, you’d be extremely popular! Be sure to let Mudspike in on an alpha product - I would love to do that preview!

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I over think things too much but I am not sure, in general, people understand how difficult a task that can be.

Let us just take a simple thought experiment and see where it goes.

Assume that we have a network tree of the map. This tree allows us to link all of the cities and installations (airfields, ports, anything destroy-able that we want to impact the choices that we make). This network needs to be arranged in such a way that we can navigate it the same way that we travel along a map: distances, obstacles and paths need to be accounted for and weights need to be assigned to the nodes based on their strategic values. These weights need to be adjusted for each side in the upcoming battle.

Now we have most of the components necessary to allow some AI to traverse the map and battle over nodes. When have a ton (millions of choices) of paths through the network for a decent sized map but it has weaknesses. That map does not allow units or armies to travel the space between the nodes and paths (for example: If an AI does not want to travel highway 1 or highway 2 because of bottlenecks or the high likelihood of getting their forces crushed while they are in a straight line, then unless we have the forest/field included in the network, the AI can not choose that path … strategically).

Already we are well outside the bounds of a chess game and we are ignoring the units, capabilities and strategic/tactical choices that the AI will have to make to implement it’s war plan. Throw into that mix objectives as abstract as 1) Red: Destroy Blue or 2) Blue: hold Red forces city 23 and the AI has a really difficult problem on it’s hands. How do you code a Blue AI that is supposed to delay the Red advance (assuming that is even Red’s orders).

If you have this problem solved, and I argue that it is very complex to solve and that I am most likely over thinking it, now you need the AI to generate orders for groups of units to achieve it’s overall strategic objective, react to the battles, wins and losses, and rethink it’s objectives from what-was-intended to what-is-now-possible. Each of those lower level AI ‘generals’ need to plot the best way to achieve their objectives given the section of the network that they are operating in and how the other generals are planning and executing in their section of the network.

Existing systems have done an amazing job with a complex problem given resources that were, at the time, relatively limited. We have a lo of extra CPU cycles that we can throw at the problem but the problem itself is very complex.

I am not advocating that effort should not be pushed in this direction, only that it is a more complex beast than many imagine.

Scripted campaigns are easier because they remove that top level AI. Each level of script that you add (script in the sense that a human is laying out the tasks, objectives and operational orders for a given day or half-day of the campaign) means that the AI problem gets simpler, but not trivial. If you work top down, you will eventually get to level of detail that the current Mission Editor allows with one obvious limitation … how we pass state from one mission to another.

If you take a look in the ME as it is now, you will see that ED has been putting the seeds in there for a while: airfield installations have supply fields. ED has obviously been considering this problem for a while. The trick is to determine what level of implementation gives the best representation or illusion of a ‘dynamic’ battlefield to the user - in a multiplayer environment - without digging a hole bigger than the finances can handle.

You will notice that not a single previous attempt at a flight sim implementation of a dynamic campaign has paid off financially. I do not mean to state that as proof of the difficulty but only to illustrate the fine financial edge that companies need to walk.

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I believe we’re overthinking this a bit. There is a lot of discussion about it being financially viable and how it’s a task that’s too daunting. I’m not trying to make light of the difficulties involved…it’s just we have current examples to learn from.

Pat Wilson has created a campaign generator for Rise of Flight that is/was so good…777 stopped attempting to compete with it and pretty much abandoned their own career system. This was a created by a single individual in his spare time and is available for free. It has been stated many times by users that his generator…is the sole reason they continue to fly ROF and purchase planes to run in his generator.

Pat has been tapped by 777 to create a system for IL2 BOS and currently has a beta version out. Many customers believe his generator is possibly the only thing that can save BOS’s single player experience.

Some other examples are The Enlightened Forest’s generator for Cliffs of Dover and Lowengrins dynamic campaign generators for Combat Flight Simulator 2 and IL-2 1946. M-Bot also has one that Beach previewed and shows promise.

Saying that it’s not financially viable and that it takes a mountain of resource’s shouldn’t be an issue when you have a talented and passionate individual willing to take up the task as the above shows. The only problem with the above generators (except for EF’s COD one) is that they have to run outside the game interface as a separate program. This is because they don’t have the benefit of the source code…something that should give ED a running start. Also, who else would have the most in depth knowledge of how the mission editor works then the developers themselves?

A potential problem in creating one for DCS World is the constantly moving target. With many having 3 current installs of DCS at different patch levels…it could be a nightmare to keep up with. It’s probably best to wait until 2.0 is at the release candidate stage and we’re down to one stable release version for someone to build on from there.

Just my opinion of course. :smile:

The counterpoint to that is - there are dozens (?) of talented programmers at Eagle Dynamics. Knowing that a dynamic campaign is one of the most desired “products” that they could produce (and profit from), surely they would whip one out in no time if it were as easy as you make it sound. I mean, a month of man-hours and boom - the biggest seller they have ever produced is done. We might be over-thinking it, but you might be over-simplifying it.

Also - I didn’t preview MBot’s campaign - it was Einstein, so I don’t know much (other than what was in the article) about the depth and persistence of the campaign. Does it track resources such as base inventories, missiles, bombs, ground unit movements, (and their resources, missiles, weapons, fuel state) etc…? Upscaling, making it work with a map, making it work with briefs and debriefs, making it believable…those are not small tasks I’d guess. And the fantastic progress that has been shown with 2.0 also indicates that resources have been pretty tied up in other things. My hope is once that “base program” of 2.0 is out in final form, perhaps they might take a look at diving into the campaign side of development.

BeachAV8R

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This will be a disaster factor for any 3rd party tool - dynamic campaign, complex mission script set, etc. - the more complicated the tool, the more significant the work will be to keep it up to date with an independently changing product.

A better solution would be to tie the development of the two products together somehow - either have support of the dynamic campaign tool a requirement for the base program, or have an identified interfaces documented so that changes can be identified and reacted to earlier and more easily. Either one requires commitment and support from both the business developer and the individual party.

+1 to this, especially when you consider most people want an RTS, or very close to an RTS. I think we need to decide what we want. Personally, I just want a dynamic mission/campaign system that remembers the impact I had from the previous mission. I want that for single play, co-op, and multiplayer. I dont need to simulate an entire war, that can be done creatively based on what I described above.

Even this is still a pretty huge undertaking, taking into account new content, maps, aircraft, vehicles… 3rd Parties… this isnt Falcon 4.

A couple of quick thoughts:

1 - I’m not that stressed personally with the 3 different branches of DCS releases, in 1.2, 1.5 and 2.0. I just see the 1.5/2.0 as a weird timeline anomaly because of meeting the NTTR release date and it’ll go away soon enough. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the Caucasus region map is under going something more than just an automated mesh update in a tool, and that there is some ‘art’ conversion going on, which means the map might have more detail than a straight conversion (pure speculation, but hey, we’re on a forum right…).

2 - I come from a position of great ignorance :slight_smile: of how much I like this new splurge of DCS campaign modules we are getting. So with the two NTTR ones coming down the track, plus these:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/campaigns/

…we have now 5 decent sizes DCS player-story campaigns things to play. My point is that often the people that really want the ideal of a dynamic campaign might not have tried to play these new things just yet, as in that might be something they enjoy. I personally haven’t spent much time trying to play them, but intend to.

It reminds me a bit of the whole Elite vs Star Citizen approach, where on one hand you have a procedural generated sandbox with automated missions versus the other where SC promised ‘hand curated, story based experiences’. Elite gets accused of being ‘dry’ or a mile wide and an inch thick, as the content seems so samey after a while. SC gets accused (or will probably be, once it’s done) in that if you’ve played the story once then why play it again? For Elite you get told you have to ‘role play’ but your consequences never really seem to make much impact (as why should they, you’re just one guy in a ship). I can’t help but think that a high fidelity dynamic campaign might be just like that, and people will then ask ‘where is the story?’.

And that illustrates the basic problem: the definition of a dynamic campaign. I would like to see a dynamic campaign track the damage/impact of the missions we flow but there are two other items I would like to see:

  1. The ‘feeling’ of a live battlefield. I am less interested in the strategic choices and the prosecution of the war effort (topics I described in the above post meant to illustrate how things can get drastically out of hand, or difficult, when you travel the path that Falcon 4 has travelled). What I want to see is a busy airfield, or a busy front line, or busy resupply. I want to feel like I am part of something without a mission designed having to do a ton of work, every mission, to put units in there that are almost cosmetic. Almost :smile:

  2. Another part of the live battlefield: being diverted from one mission to another. This can be handled by the mission designer but that means it is scripted. This is probably my most unrealistic design, pie-in-the-sky feature but being pulled, randomly, from your mission to help out another unit who is more critically in need. Yeah. I said pie-in-the-sky and I meant it - I have no realistic expectation of this part ever being implemented.

I agree. And being that over-thinking it was part of the reason for the discussion, we should be over thinking it. We are talking about why it can be difficult, not why it can be easy.

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I don’t recall anyone saying it’s easy…I was just giving current examples of immersive campaigns/career generators that were created by single individuals as a side project with no funding. I’m sure there were many hours involved in creating these to extend the life of our sims and make them more interesting to fly. It was more to show that it most likely wouldn’t take half the ED programming team to try and create something… the examples I gave above show what’s been possible by a motivated individual with a good working knowledge of the editor.

Well let’s face it. To oversimplify things - there are two reasons for doing something. 1) You want to do it. 2) It makes financial sense. Aircraft modules and terrains seems to be a no-brainer for #2 - the known knowns with making aircraft (particularly for someone experienced like ED) is an easy bet. I don’t know how hard making a dynamic campaign would be. And I mean a consumer level campaign with all the polish and accuracy that study level combat sim fans would want. Obviously, somewhere within the bowels of the ED machine, someone has sat down and estimated how many man hours and resources it would take vs. the payoff and to this point it hasn’t been a priority. I’m sure there are lots of people on the ED staff that would love to create a Falcon slayer dynamic campaign and close the door on that chapter for good. I certainly hope they meet the requirements for both #1 and #2 above and they get it done.

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And whether or not the business case can be made, it has to be a better choice than the other options that that business has. I know a lot of people like to lead other companies from the comfort of their favorite forum armchair, bit it’s quite different when you have real stakeholders, employees, schedules, and your own personal passions to answer to.

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Valid points.

As to being financially viable…there are clues to weather it would be worth the effort. I think Wags poll that showed an overwhelming desire for this type of campaign, more than any other category might be helpful in the decision process.

I don’t know exactly how long it takes to make an aircraft module like the A-10C…it does seem like a lot of work and years of labor, and they sell it for $60. Myself, and I would imagine many others, would gladly pay $60 for a dynamic campaign DLC module. This would add life to the current modules I own. That’s of course just my personal preference…maybe the majority of DCS flyers would not want to pay for a dynamic campaign…who knows.

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What EinsteinEP said. Love reading the replies to this thread! BTW, any game developers replied? You know they read these forums.

So, only thing I’ve read so far is that it’s hard to do, and the cost is prohibitive.

My favorite, inspirational quote follows:
“we choose to go to the Moon not because it’s easy, but because it is hard.” -JFK

I’m just a software developer with a datacom background, and would like to apply my experience to this problem domain. So how do you do it? It is hard, so you break in down in various abstraction layers of detail. Reference the tcp/ip stack with its layers split between management & data plane.
Top layers could manage a scenario (war, battle, who cares), middle layers handle movement (data). My thinking here is it translates to a mobile environment and those problems have been solved (graph theory). Bottom layers, the details, handled via an API the developer uses.

Anyway, in the end, want to offer a developer a campaign engine, that “they” would hook into - in whatever detail they want to. And I still like the chess game analogy; as simplistic as it is, still holds.

It’s a fun problem to work on, I’ll see how it goes.

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I think that a business case could be made. I mean there seems to be quite a few people who lament the lack of in-depth single player in DCS. A dynamic campaign engine of some sort might get them to purchase the game. Additionally one would assume that when WW2 assets are added they could be used to create a WW2 campaign. In my mind the labor cost to ED would probably similar to a A10-C level aircraft module. From my limited understanding it seems that any campaign would be just about as complex to develop.

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I’m going to throw out a hypothetical scenario and you folks can tell me if the thinking behind it seems rational (or irrational).

As I said before, I don’t really know how long it takes to create an A-10C type module from beginning to end…but I would guess close to 3 years…and it sells at a price point of $60. I would venture that a dynamic campaign DLC module would probably do well at a price point of $30 given the poll and the overall desire for a more immersive experience by many DCS pilots.

We can all agree that creating a dynamic campaign would be a difficult and long task…but isn’t creating a full blown module like the A-10c difficult and long as well? At half the price, I would like to think for it to be profitable…a dynamic campaign would need to be done in about a year and a half.

Some advantages of doing a dynamic campaign instead of a full blown module could be:

No 3D modeling: I can only imagine how long it takes to model an aircraft with the precision that we’ve seen. When you consider this includes modeling the cockpit complete with working gauges and switches.

No FM and DM research and implementation: There is a lot of time spent in this area when modeling an aircraft for sure.

No avionics/radars/weapons modeling: Probably a lot of time spent in this area.

While it would be difficult to create a DC…it would seem that you wouldn’t have all these layers of departments that have to crossover with each other. The challenges would be a lot different though: How you want it to function, the UI, triggers, spawning, resources and probably a dozen other things I can’t think of…but it seems you would not have to have the difficult task of overlapping departments having to work with each other.

I have made some assumptions on price point and how long modules take to create…but does this sound like it’s in the realm of possibility?