Exactly, neither can you make a business on trying to cure the human condition. If people want to make themselves unhappy, you can’t keep them. You can however give them the tools to judge if something will make them unhappy. Due diligence, plain and simple.
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There’s the answer! ED DOES have a standard. It is not public and maybe it would be nice if it was. But in that case we’d use it as a crudgel against them if we’d perceived the standard to have been missed. So they have an in-house standard that balances the need for income with the need for faith-keeping with its customers. Being vocal will not change ED’s release process. Nor will being vocal change the minds of other adult users. If one finds the situation unacceptable, their best recourse is to not buy and to tell ED why directly.
I’m all for that.
But when people can’t be bothered to read the current EA disclaimer…
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Yes.
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I still remember them by the old ‘EOA’ or box, sphere and triangle, logo…
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E A SPORTS…its in the game
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Back then they DID some serious art. Amazing games.
Not really upset, not sure why you want to claim that. When they launched it they didn’t say it would be unfinished forever and then in the interim just go release a bunch more new things to buy 
Did you have a moderator reply to every comment you made on that saying perhaps you need to rethink your entitlement, and were ‘being disingenuous’ or as stupid as some with ‘a nut allergy munching peanuts’? Perhaps you just misunderstood the terms of the WWII Kickstarter - you’ve gotta check the details? If you didn’t understand it then why did you purchase it? Etc. (to see what I mean about level of empathy and appearances, rather than literally)
Depends on who’s doing it really. A moderator for what’s meant to be a fiercely independent site can give the wrong impression I think, especially if they counter-point every single time like clockwork. One or two is good.
I like this - good idea.
Ah, there it is…
Agreed, we’re close on this one. 
Absolutely!
I’m not so sure about this, as in only do it directly bit. A mob sometimes works better than a single email put in a junk pile.
There it is…
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Y’know…that made me come to a sudden realization about something. Every single time the EA model discussion comes up it becomes deadlocked for two reasons:
- Lack of empathy among the participants
- Polarization via thinking in absolutes/jumping to extreme conclusions
Not really any different than political “discussions” these days 
There’s a solution to all of this. If ED makes sure that the state the module is in is properly documented, people can decide for themselves if the particular EA module is for them.
Exactly. This is my approach when choosing to purchase or not purchase an EA module, but instead of getting clear information straight from the company that makes it, I have to spend days or weeks gathering information from three forums and five YouTube channels that make insufferably long videos just for ad revenue when they can make their point in less than 5 minutes if they really wanted to. And I have to take those YouTube channels with a grain of salt because they’re typically shilling for ED. After Jabbers reasonably and constructively criticized the Viper’s launch, ED cut ties with him…rather petty behavior I have seen repeatedly from ED since I started taking note of their community in 2008 or so.
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Not ‘you’ as in you. The general ‘you’. Because people are upset with this. At least that’s how I interpret their feelings.
No… Now you ‘re scaring me a bit.
Is that how my replies are interpreted…? 
To my knowledge, I have never said that, nor anything close to…
You are talking about me!
I am at a loss here.
I have never moderated anyones opinions here, unless they were made as personal attacks.
I do however think that anyone, including moderators, should be able to participate in the debate. If being a moderator means I can’t weigh in on subjects that matter to me, then I do not want to be a moderator.
I mean, the very same right to expression must apply to everyone. That’s how I see it, anyway.
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Can’t we all just take a deep breath and be friends again?
(he said while sharpening a slice of mango)
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I think it’s pretty common to have to manage the conversation as moderator, you can’t just say what you want at any time, as you’re representing the site and the rules. I don’t know what to say to you about you not realizing that until now, as writing it down like that makes it seem obvious. You literally need to try to be impartial on a subject, because if you’re the one blazing a trail on one extreme of a debate then that makes others feel like they won’t get a fair shake of the stick - it’s not fair, but that’s how it is cupcake, unfair. The upside is you do get all the juicy gossip though, so it’s not all bad!
I refer you to this quote below (finally, I quoted myself!), in the heady summer days of 100 posts ago and where I arrived. I didn’t think I did subtle that often, but apologies, I think I’ve probably danced around too much, writing too many words to get to a point.
So yeah, I think we can do better on this. It’s something that takes constant evaluation. I wouldn’t freak out about it but I would consider it some. Everyone else seems good, so it’s probably ok to ignore it.
It is tribal, both on the ‘They are stupid gullible fans’ and the ‘They are stupid ignorant haters’ schools of thought. For every ‘You shouldn’t have bought EA!’ there is a ‘There’s malicious intent everywhere!’ and I do think it’s asymmetric in that one group isn’t even talking to the other, they wanted to talk to someone else.
Anyway, torture time over for all. I’ve made my points and then some. If the site is just vanilla screenshots and high-fives then it’ll wither away. Some debate on truths can be healthy.
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I consider @Troll a very good friend and a huge help to Mudspike. I’m not trying to debate that, so apologies to all if that seems the case.
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In my opinion the EA has its place to give users a peek to an incomplete product.
Have I been disappointed by bugs in EA products, yes of course. But, as a software engineer, I know there will always be bugs in this kind of massive fast moving project. Lack of upcoming features does not bother me that much as there is already too much to learn in this game.
The alternative of dropping EA is not a solution for me. Then my Hind would have to wait probably years instead of months. Broken Hind is better than no Hind.
I agree with others that more transparency is the key. Then it would be easier to make informed decisions. I think ED knows this and they have tried to explain the state of the EA products in detail. I guess the roadmap to complete product could be given in quarter of a year accuracy. This can be very difficult though.
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Can I just make a small point on this. I absolutely agree that extreme arguments and major disruption needs to be moderated, but as long as everyone including the mods are having a discussion within the rule set then there is nothing to actually be moderated and everyone can participate in the discussion without penalty. This discussion here is far from the most heated thing I’ve seen on mudspike. We all have an opinion on this but no one is being rude about it, its just point and counter point. No need to remain impartial.
It’s an independent site so we don’t need to bow to ED or Microsoft or anyone else. But we always need to remain respectful of each other and within that rule we also remain respectful of the outside world including the developers I mentioned. We do a pretty good job on here as a whole and that’s why we don’t need heavy moderation most of the time. That buys us freedom until someone crosses the line. I’m more than happy to have mods join in the discussions. They are members as well. But in my view they are there to both act as members and ambassadors to the site and also ensure the rules are followed. None of the mods use the power they have to enforce their own opinions on here like a lot of other sites. It’s a pretty level playing field from what I can see.
I think we are pretty self moderating most of the time apart from the odd speed bump
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too late Fearless, too late! 
off-topic question
(while I have you here @fearlessfrog , is it possible to have the gifs sizable? like pictures pls? 100% 75% 50% ? that would be cool, thx)
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The nice thing about both @Troll and @fearlessfrog is that they share a common personality trait in that they can engage…and, at the risk of quoting Ted Lasso “be a goldfish”. It has taken me a long, long time to reach the point of being able to not take too many things personally. In fact, entrenched views that I might have had 5, 10, or 25 years ago have evolved over time and whatever memory I do have of my positions from long ago have evolved and I’m probably embarrassed about what I was thinking back then.
“You” is always a tough one on the internet. It always seems accusatory. Sometimes I think the pricking up of the hairs can be attributed to that one word. “You”, in most cases on forums, usually means a group of people…even when it isn’t specifically implied because one thing I’ve learned over time is that rarely is there just one person with a unique opinion.
The side benefit of these deep dives into a topic like this is a bit of an understanding of the reasons other people feel the way they do, even if you don’t even come to that conclusion. You (ah…there is that word!..not YOU specifically) don’t have to win an argument necessarily. Sometimes you just have to accept that a win is getting your perspective across…not necessarily changing any minds.
Developers need to be somewhat thick skinned. We (uh-oh…all of us?) are a pretty tough group. We can silently enjoy the 1000 things about a module…but oh man…those other things that are broke. Whew-weee…Katy bar the door. Developers should know that though. By now they should have expected it. Unless when they turn out the lights in their virtual office each night - they too are goldfish.
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I was formulating these very thoughts…edit, delete…
Then this post popped up.
I’ve noticed I have to be very aware of my personal pronoun usage anymore, especially when not face-to-face.
The thought runs through my mind often these days (last few years especially), “we need to remember all the things we have in common”.
Complex software is, well, complicated
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My friends can say what they want to me, as long as they say what they mean.
I don’t always agree with my friends though. But that’s not a requirement.
Well, I think I am impartial in that I apply the rules equally to everybody, with the caveat that it’s not an exact science and I sometimes miss things. I am human. 
I’m not impartial in that I don’t agree with everybody, but I do allow others to disagree with me.
I have never removed a post because I didn’t agree with it. I have been accused of doing just that, but it was just a case of posting in the wrong thread
You can’t expect a moderator that also is a part of the community, to not be allowed to express their views. You can expect a community moderator to stay within the rules but not to stay out of the discussions.
Nothing I have stated in this thread has been contrary to the rules.
I am aware of the fact that english is not my first language and that it sometimes is a challenge to convey feelings in written form. Interpretation is also challenging, largely due to the absence of body language and tone of voice. This is why I have asked directly if offence was taken when I have suspected this to be the situation.
If my posts have been interpreted in the way I hope they were, I don’t see how anybody could be offended by them.
Offence was certainly not intended.
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I’ve enjoyed the discussion and hope it continues in the spirit in which it started. The reason EA/alpha/beta comes with some emotion is that we have all invested years of our lives and many thousands of dollars to enjoy it. Debate CAN change minds. Such outcomes are rare but they do happen. I have changed my feelings about ED’s business model over the years.
Ages ago I served Guam pilots as the First Officer rep for our union. This was my first exposure to meetings and Roberts Rules of Order. When I went to Washington for “leadership training” one of the books they gave us was a little orange quick guide to Roberts Rules. It’s the stuff of jokes. That is until you are in meetings where people scream, cry and throw punches. Yes, I have seen all three. Parliamentary Procedure protects meetings by concentrating debate on what’s being discussed instead of who’s doing the discussing. It’s not perfect, but it is far better than the alternative which is always chaos.
We don’t have these tools here. Instead we have our own sensibilities aided by gentle moderation. Written language is tough. Some people really come off as testy, even angry. Expressing ourselves with precision requires a lot of words. If those words aren’t there the alternative is to be clear and direct. Unfortunately, to a native speaker who’s been exposed to a lifetime of all those nice words that help lubricate a gentle society, directness often comes across as bullheaded and disrespectful.
Since the party taking offense in such exchanges is often the native speaker, I think it is our responsibility to make allowances for the idiosyncrasies of language and assume until proven otherwise, that the other party failed in nuance, not tone.
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