Do I feel like i got my moneys worth from the harrier
Have i moved on to other modules and lessened with time the amount i fly it.
Do I worry anymore about the £30 i spent nearly 2 years ago to buy it?
Do I expect Razbam to keep updating that module forever?
Do i think i was lied to when I bought the module in early access as regards to features planned for the future but not implemented?
Probably not. Time moves on.
Do I think early access is bad.
Yes, with a caveat. The problem is that early access allows a massive influx of cash for the development team to in theory pay for the completion of the module. However after that influx of cash the sales will naturally drop off. Limiting future earning potential. Limiting growth as all profits from the sales are put back into the product as opposed to investment in the next one. Its a self defeating business model. Especially for a niche product like a dcs module.
But we keep buying them. They keep taking the wages and the companies involved are on borrowed time in my view. There is no potential for growth.


I like the Harrier module. The plane is so unique and also the cockpit graphics in high res VR must be one of the best in DCS (Hornet cockpit looks dull after it). I bought it late in development thinking I would get quite finished product, just to find out it is riddled with small bugs. The most frustrating thing about many of the bugs is that they seem to be easy to fix, but they just don’t get any attention. For example the ground track marker is off when using magnetic bearing. I figured out it would need changing a ‘+’ to ‘-’ in one of the calculations. Still it just doesn’t get fixed. Talk about low hanging fruits.

Great points.

I often find myself thinking this should be a subscription thing. NOT because I like that model, not at all. It’s a ‘leak’ in my wallet. However I see little difference in that and paying the Sat/Cable company for a lot of stuff I never use (watch).

They are both for my entertainment, though in some ways I sense a monthly cash deposit to ED might actually make me feel better - like they are catering to me, personally. Dang sure more than the cable/Sat companies do.

This is all due to the highly unique sub-sub-sub-genre of a sandbox we are playing in.
It always boils down to competition: there is none, really.

Still why I stick to my other wild idea that, one day, FS2020 will be weaponized providing a [more] stable target - and even ED could just concentrate on aircraft only. No 3D/Sound engine(s)/etc to worry about.

Now, would this make the products any better, or be produced faster? Have no idea but I’d like to think so. This is about the only thing, outside of what I already have to pay (again, Cable/Sat bill), that I would even consider ‘renting’. Horrible idea? Maybe.

G’day gents

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Some of these have been going on for years now unfortunately, and they can be quite a show stopper once you get into the fiddly systems. I’ve defended Razbam on this many, many times believing they would fix it eventually. I suppose I have reached my breaking point.


Only problem is what do you do for those who have spent hundreds, if not thousands on the product(s) now? For example, iRacing subscriptions are nominally $110US per year; that means for someone like me, who bought into DCS 2 years ago, who owns everything except the Christen Eagle, Fw-190D, and I-16, have $1465US invested in the game already. Does that mean I get ~11 years of free subscription?


If I am allowed to put on my tin-foil hat just once and spew some conspiracy theories, it might have to do with the Razbam promise that they would not publish more planes until the current stable leaves Early Access. I just wouldn’t know why else they would suddenly remove the Early Access tag without any real new feature added recently. I think it’s all a big shame because I also really enjoyed flying the Harrier but never went deep into its systems due to the tons of small issues. It’s so great in VR because the short distance to the screens make them appear big, and it’s awe-inspiring to fly at night with the FLIR on the HUD.

@jross We had a pretty big discussion about such a business model (and Early Access was also the reason that started that whole discussion) a few months ago. Here’s the topic: Considerations and Ruminations on the Early Access Model

I hear ya. And I don’t have the complete answer. Hmmm, my total, just to ED, is well North of 5 Hondo’s myself now that I think about it. And I don’t want to think about what I’ve spent on this hobby just in the last twenty years. Golf is cheaper :slight_smile: …okay, maybe not…

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they have just posted a massive list of Harrier fixes over at ED forums …
RAZBAM_Prowler: In release queue
-Damage model logic improved and additional damage parts

  • Corrected error in engine efficiency table at high altitudes that was resulting in higher than designed thrust loss at very high altitudes
  • Fixed SAAHS paddle disable incorrectly resetting stick trim position and not resetting rudder trim and will now correctly restore rudder trim when released
  • Fixed Speedbrake logic based on SME information to extend as long as OUT is pressed and will fully retract when IN is pressed (Allows for partial extension but will always fully retract)
  • Corrected Rocker Switch bleeding into MPD bezel
  • BUGFIX: Corrected aircraft diverting prior to maneuvering tone envelope
  • BUGFIX: Structural load damage no longer instantaneous, now requires sustained over-tolerance for structural failure
    [3:02 AM] RAZBAM_Prowler: - BUGFIX: Corrected where large body angular rates (out of control) was resulting in infinite values
  • BUGFIX: HUD Repeater too large.
  • IMPROVEMENT: Reduced Font Size for EHSD data
  • BUGFIX: Dual rack bombs release order
  • IMPROVEMENT: Backup ADI cage/pitch adjust Keybinds
  • BUGFIX: Pull up cue not appearing when selected.
  • BUGIFX: RWR knob increments
  • IMPROVEMENT: RWR Minimum Volume value reduced
  • BUGFIX: EHSD auto zoom leads to symbology misplaced.
  • BUGFIX: MPCD, brightness control buttons behavior
  • BUGFIX: MPCD, Moving Map too bright
  • Included GUB32 and GUB54
  • BUGIFX: Harrier default rocket ranges inverted
  • BUGIFX: EHSD decenter display overlay misplaced
  • BUGFIX: Seat Height adjustment non-functional (Partial, requires seat animation)
  • BUGFIX: RWR partially functional when ON
  • BUGFIX: MPCD ECM page retruns to calling page.
  • BUGFIX: SS Left now cycles Map Center, Decenter and EW page
    Maybe released
  • BUGFIX: Harrier, In cockpit rudder trim switch does not function
  • BUGIFX: EHSD, Course over ground incorrect in Mag mode
  • AGM-122: Removed HUD limitations
    Ready for release
  • TPOD axis dead zone has been reduced.
  • BUGFIX: DMT slaved to AIM9 Seeker.
  • BUGFIX: Sidewinder being fired when cycling from AG to AA to AG
  • BUGFIX: Comm channel selector not sequencing correctly
  • BUGFIX: HUD reject logic inverted
  • BUGFIX: AGM-122 Sidearn seeker head does not align with RWR source
  • BUGFIX: TPOD in powerup mode when starting HOT
  • BUGFIX: Altimeter adjustment knob erratic functionality
  • BUGFIX: CRS knob erratic functionality
    apparently all this stuff was in the works or someone has been doing some late nights for the last week

Either way, important fixes! I suppose they just needed to get a good kicking from ED to get a move on on the bugs.

Or maybe it took time to fix bugs.
Sometimes an apparently easy bug is way more tricky to fix than someone can imagine.


Guess Razbam must check out mudspike forums Casper and saw your rant :stuck_out_tongue:

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That is true, no excuse to let many of these bugs run on for years on end. If you can’t duplicate functionality from existing DCS modules in 2 years then perhaps you need to have a good look at your processes or skill coverage.

Very unlikely! Even got kicked from their Discord as most people have been that voiced their concerns regarding the Harrier. A lot of them love it to bits and constantly offered support and advice to others flying it…


IMO a sub model would work best on a “DCS World II” release. Port over all the planes and terrains from DCS 1 with a ton of upgrades to the base systems–graphics/rendering, AI, weapons modeling, physics, weather, lighting, water, performance with multiple units on a map, etc.

Now supposedly all this is going to happen with DCS World as is with no charge other than us continuing to buy modules, but in case they can’t make the numbers work…

I can’t see the existing one moving over because of how long it has been. iRacing began as a sub. Of course, they ALSO make you buy everything you use, like DCS, so your sub is basically to maintain the engine. However, tracks and cars are much cheaper than buying Nevada or a Tomcat, so there isn’t as much money left over when someone is only interested in getting say some NASCAR tracks and those cars alone.

Sadly I couldn’t afford a subscription model…
Also I wouldn’t like it on the principle.

Maybe I’m not understanding how it’d work but…


My guess is there would be either a single “all included” tier, where you could DL and use ANY module in DCS World for a fixed monthly fee (that would likely be fairly high), or there could be multiple tiers that would unlock greater access for greater amounts.

Perhaps a base “ED products only tier” and a premium “3rd party plus” tier. Maybe they would have separate terrain and plane tiers (because a lot of people might like to fly just the Hornet but on all the maps, for example, or only want Syria but a ton of planes).

There are literally dozens of ways to slice it, but other than what we currently have there isn’t a “no brainer” way that is obvious where everyone has the Su-25T and Black Sea and it’s a la carte for the rest, besides perhaps a “pay per month for ALL of it” sub that would likely be like buying a module every other month…

Not a fan.

I always thought it was a weird business model to give the game away for free. I’m not complaining but I always struggle to make the maths work in my head of how they make it a viable option to do it this way

Even if they made the base game £15 to get you started would be a phenomenal amount of income for them.

The Su-25T is old and the Black Sea terrain is as well. They sunk their money into them already, even with the update the Black Sea is still older and has less than the others (smallest storage footprint of all of them).

This lets you get in and see what the world is like while seeing all the other shiny helos and planes flying around that you could fly if you just buy them…

I’m willing to bet good money no one owns another terrain while not owning anything but the Su-25T to fly in it, though. I’m sure there are many who only use the Black Sea, though, whatever planes they may have.


I understand your points. But I’ve paid more for a lot less elsewhere. Lol

The free content is there too hook em’ - the paid modules are there to clean em’ and fry em’…