C-101 and L-39: Trainer Comparison

Not to argue at all, but I’ll present a counterpoint based on my experience:

Learning DCS itself (as a sim/software) probably is easier in pancake mode. You can see the keyboard, so you don’t need an extensive HOTAS with everything mapped, and can refer to guides on an phone or tablet much more easily.

That said, learning to fly/operate an aircraft module in DCS is easier in VR, in my opinion. For one, the cockpit geometry is intuitive; you can move your head to see around the control stick, find switches and buttons faster and more easily and secondly, you have depth perception and a sense of feel for the aircraft that just isn’t present on flatscreen.

When using a mouse or hat switch to move your POV (look around), it adds an additional layer of complexity because not only are you flying the aircraft, you’re driving your pilots head, and you have to think about where you’re looking and how to achieve the view you want. Some cockpit switches are simply inaccessible without 6 DoF that VR can give you. I know that TrackIR is great too (used it for years before the VR evangelists converted me :grin:), but it has pitfalls as well, and can’t give you 1:1 head movement all the way around (clever curves and profiles can help there though). With VR, it’s simply something you don’t think about, you just do. Just like in RL, which makes it so incredible for me.

I too had ‘lack-of-motion’ discomfort (albeit very manageable and ignorable in my own case) early on in VR. Doing normal visual maneuvers, VMC-IMC and IMC never bothered me at all because as a pilot, I’m already adept at ‘turning off’ or ignoring my lying inner ear on a daily basis. What did get me the first few times was doing acro in VMC, like a loop; My brain knew what it should feel like IRL, and when it didn’t, pulling over the top my inner ear freaked out a bit. It was actually amazing to me, because it meant that my brain had fully ‘bought into’ the VR visuals up until that point. After a few times early on, I haven’t had that problem since, so I think that it’s possible for some people to power-through, much like IFR training. For some people, obviously not, and that’s okay; doesn’t make anyone a poor pilot or anything*, it just means the visuals are convincing enough to fool the brain.

The first few years I went to Level-D Sim training, I experienced motion discomfort while taxiing, since my brain knew what that should feel like, and when we made a turn, the sim couldn’t fully replicate that feeling (and understandably, probably not a great deal of effort is spent on the ground handling motion, compared to when the sim is in the air). Eventually I learned to stare straight ahead and keep telling my brain it was fake, until we got lined up on the runway. These days, it barely bothers me and actually strikes me as funny that it still does that a bit.

*One of the sharpest stick & rudder aviators I’ve flown with has been flying for 40+ years, and cannot do acro. He pukes after a few spin rotations or a gentleman’s roll. Always has, always will. IMC never bothered him, but he can’t handle acro, at least as a passenger. Says it’s the same way on roller coasters; go figure.

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No question some things are better learned in VR . Pattern work , formation flying and refueling to name but three .

But DCS itself has a rather steep learning curve , with graphic and other settings , hotas assignments , and study-level aircraft and weapons systems to be learned and mastered .

It’s a lot on the plate without adding all the tweaking necessary for a good VR experience , particularly for a WMR headset like the G2 , which imo is the best headset for DCS (unless you can afford $2500 for an Aero and accesories) .

So , yeah , equal arguments could be made for either case , and it goes without saying that whatever choice you make , it is wrong - at least that’s what my wife tells me :slight_smile:

Girl Why Dont We Have Both GIF

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BFM and Aerial gunnery are also way easier and more fun in VR.

top gun film GIF by Hollywood Suite

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Absolutely !

Aerobatics are like BFM, only performed on your own and without any appreciable result (save a dirty tissue…) :anchor:

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Yeah i saw how ridiculous my reply was , and edited too late ! Perhaps a coffee is in order…

No mission is complete unless i top a ridge-crossing upside-down -pull-roll 90-pull and slice down into a gorge !

I am also a VR addict.
However, the tinkerer in me still think that real cockpit hardware and a surround view by either big screen TV’s or projectors is even cooler than VR.
But that kind of locks the experience to just one aircraft and requires a lot more space…

Me too!
I’ve never been sick in an aircraft. Felt a little queasy on that last acro lesson before my checkride, when I had pulled a wisdom tooth a couple of hours earlier.
But ground operations in the sim still makes me go Whooooaaa

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This man knows. I feel the need…the need for …oopps dammit! “Wife!!! It happened again!!!”

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Is there any downside from a graphics/CPU loading side of thing having a large pixel count monitor at a very high refresh rate and the VR goggles? Am I wrong in looking at this as a zero sum game with the more pixels being processed at a higher rate, the worse?

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A screen will always need but a fraction of the pixel processing power that VR does. Not only does it need to draw it far less times per second, it also needs to draw far less of it. The resolution of the G2 is almost 4K, but it needs a lot of frames per second to do its thing without being too uncomfortable.

So far flat screen, a 3060 for example will do nicely. For VR, a 3090 isn’t even overkill. (but a lesser card will make do with some tuning)

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Nice! Thanks for the work.

PS: Man, I wish they’d update the NTTR :frowning: <<< In case anyone from E.D. is reading this, I’m not alone here.

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Yup, in VR, with my new high-dollar space heater (3080Ti), and after some ‘tuning’ of the entire system, I still can’t come close to fire-walling the settings. But it is smoother which helps a lot - the smoother it is the more “I’m there” the feeling is.

When all I did was ‘heavy-metal’ simming (which was the case pre-VR), 2D on a large screen was fine; to me it was more about navigation and ‘hitting my numbers’.

But when the need to maneuvering vs something else (carrier deck, bombing target, another aircraft, etc) is the goal, VR any day. And as we’ve talked about before, the haptic feedback thing is much more influential? in VR - it’s almost annoying in 2D oddly enough. Guess it is then another component of the “immersion” function?

And flying a CASE-3 in VR, with the big light out and IMC - that’s the most intense sim experience I’ve ever had. I’m sure I have a problem but there’s no therapist near me for it :slight_smile:

As for learning a new module: starting in 2D makes sense , yet I never do it that way (doing any real work just makes more sense to me in 2D - I want it all right in front of me.

IMO the next significant bump in immersion will be 180-deg (requiring foveated rending I’m sure). Some day.

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For sure! But I do love my cockpit hardware… :wink:

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Yeah, my gamming fantasy (after winning the Lotto) is something akin to a a large hangar with multiple sim rigs, each a tactile replica of the real deal. In VR I know where to look for every gauge yet, by necessity, the actual buttons/levers are in the same place. Saves breaking fingernails and bruising knuckles reaching for stuff. :slight_smile:

That’s my goal as well. About 75% on a Hornet build, and have a handful of parts for an F-16 build. It’s pretty amazing to be able to do the entire cold start without ever touching your mouse!

When I’m playing VR, I actually turn down the monitor resolution to the lowest DCS will let me, just so I’m not wasting pixels I can’t see. I’ve noticed a small performance increase doing that, but not much. I’m not running a 4K 120hz monitor though, just an old 1080p.

I’m jealous. My man-closet though…ugh…it’s so small. Perhaps that’s another reason VR works so well for me.

By chance are there any hard core DCS’rs in the WPB, FL area? I’d gladly trade a shop visit where we build the L-39s for a DCS introduction.

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