DCS 2.5 Update Thread (2020)

True multirole fighters is really only the latest versions of the planes.
Yet there are still interim versions that flew around the turn of the century with updated cockpits and expanded weapons capabilities (such as R-77s) and avionics upgrades that are not so old as the Su-27P and MiG-29S we have now.

Of course, for that matter the F-15C we have is also probably from that same era. So the issue is more the FC3 planes are out of date. We do not have any DCS level Russian fighters from the current era, though, nothing more recent than the MiG-21!

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That was the previous argument ED seemed to infer. Not sure how that holds up today, and they may not be willing to discuss the matter yet. Would be cool if the surprise module was their way of answering that question, but that is only wishful thinking at best.

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Unlike many, I am perfectly happy with FC level planes. If they can only give us that level of fidelity for a Su-35 or MiG-29SMT
or a MiG-31BM!!!..so be it.

I find their balance of systems and accessibility perfect. Dumbing down the DCS planes with “easy” whatever is too far the other way. I thought the way they were modeled in Strike Fighters was a bit too simplified, but thanks to modding you could amp them up a good amount to get close to FC3.

Yet all too often the “realism at any cost!” crowd seems to get their way, so the perfect becomes the enemy of the good.

Those of us who cannot devote more than 2-3 hours/week to DCS can’t possibly learn a Hornet, Tomcat, Viper, 21, Viggen, Harrier, and SC ops to any reliable level without just forgetting most of them and focusing on one. It makes the consideration of whether to buy any more in the future much less likely. I wish every DCS plane also had an “FC mode” where the systems were backed down to that level.

I can afford the money. I can’t afford the time. You can’t buy time.

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I find FC3 a bit too basic for my liking, but I think it should be expanded just a bit - key one being radio functionality. Not that they have to overhaul them completely, but they could use a tad more features like the radio.

In regards to an FC3 mode, it’s likely impractical as hell at this point - but I like that concept. There would be issues with some of the PGM’s perhaps as well as some MP servers would want to block that mode for fair play potentially. Not really show stopping issues though compared to expanding the customer base and ease of access.

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The insistence on “fair play for adversarial MP” has been the bane of many of these games.

Personally, it’s immaterial to me because I have zero interest in playing against humans. I fly alongside them against AI, and in that case what level of complexity my plane has versus what my wingmen have is irrelevant. If I have a friend who wants a god-mode radar and “press T to cycle thru locked targets” function, while I use the TDC to slew the gates around, what harm does that cause?

Having the ability to enforce it at a server level should be all that is needed instead of telling everyone “oh, in addition to investing $80 on this plane you WILL be spending most of your nights and weekends and lunch breaks reading, watching videos, and practicing this like night school before you can even hope to survive against even basic AI adversaries.”

Especially when the missions are often so lopsided. No country’s order of battle consists of 50% of all ground units being ADA. No strike package is set up as 3 planes with one doing SEAD going against 40 ground units with 20 being ADA. Dodging fighters coming from 2 different directions while both long-and short-range SAMs are firing at you is a planning nightmare scenario, not de rigeur for expectations.

Realism isn’t just about modeling the systems and procedures accurately, the world itself needs to be correct. If mission makers throw that to the wind, then the rest of it falls into the “of course 90% of the attackers were shot down because in real life that’s what would’ve happened too” category. Putting your very real Hornet in the middle of the attack on the saucer over Area 51 in Independence Day is just ridiculous. So don’t then make those missions the guide for what should or shouldn’t be allowed as far as assists in a plane.

It seems that while the SP mission makers take this to heart, the MP ones all too often do not.

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I actually think there is more publicly available info on the Russian birds than the Chinese ones. The source of info for the JF-17 is officially denied because China doesn’t want them to be spreading that info!

Back when Flanker 1 and 2 were made, under Yeltsin, the Russian OEMs were quite open about that stuff. It wasn’t until Putin that they reverted to the hush-hush. That said, my Yefim Gordon tomes on the Flanker and Fulcrum have a LOT of data. I don’t think it’s enough to make a DCS plane, no, but it has to be good enough for FC3.

I guarantee a $30 FC3-level Russian gen 4.5 fighter like the 35s (either of them) or the 31BM or something would sell quite well. They don’t need to be as cheap as the current split off ones, but at half the price of a DCS bird you’d think they would sell quite well.

Likewise I’d like a Super Hornet of that level, too, assuming DCS is out of the question. Ok, frankly, I’d like as many planes as I have in SF2, really!

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This is a kinda-sorta thing in reality. Like the Su-25T only having a few examples made, the same is true of a lot of interim MiG-29 and Su-27 variants. They were offered for sale/upgrade to customers, but few bought them. The vast majority of Su-25s in Russian service remain the same old Su-25A, with a handful having some bolted on additional capability. The R-77 wasn’t even brought into Russian service until 2015 – so if we’re looking at things realistically, the MiG-29S shouldn’t even be able to equip them in Russian service prior to that year.

That isn’t to say I wouldn’t be pleased to see a MiG-29SMT, Su-27M, or Su-25SM, but my take is that too many people expect the Russian aircraft to be something they’re not. The introduction of these more capable variants doesn’t suddenly give you the equivalent to an F-16C or F-15E because they were never designed for that to begin with. Yes, some capability is there, but it’s not going to be anywhere near the equivalent of western capability. By and large, they’re designed to tote some rockets and iron bombs because that fits what Russian doctrine calls for.

The unfortunate reality is that mission designers don’t (or cannot) make missions with this in mind. You can’t deploy red forces identically to blue forces; there has to be some variances in how they’re organized and engaged. Thus, you get lopsided scenarios where blue outnumbers red by a great margin when it should be the other way around. In addition, red players often forget to utilize their own advantages like SAM systems because they want to get those sweet, sweet air kills so they can claim to be Maverickski. Leading a 4 ship of F-15s into a SAMbush doesn’t compute in most player’s minds, but I’ve done it many times in MiG-29A, Su-33, and MiG-21. Again, you have to think differently – as an old Russian friend of me once told me, “You’re thinking like an American.”

This is one thing I’ve never quite understood why ED is so stubborn about. Perhaps a fear that more or new FC planes might bite into potential MAC profits? I did read today that ED says it cannot and will not do Russian aircraft modules and my feeling is that it comes down to risk vs reward, access to information, and whether or not they can legally do it.

Even the FC level aircraft have to have a reasonable level of fidelity/realism to their systems, so having accurate information on hand is still important even if the system depth is limited to one or two functions. I may only intend to use some basic number crunching for a radar, but I still need some sources to tell me what the radar display is supposed to look like so I can create an accurate picture of the real thing, even if the information isn’t 1:1.

I don’t think we even have that level of control over the game settings as it is. It’s either all or none, which makes it difficult to cater to individual player choice. The information displayed is the same whether you’re using the gates or pressing a cycle target key. This certainly hasn’t been ED’s strong suit, but as you’ve noted, those who demand realism at any cost have been the squeaky wheel for some time now, so we get in-depth system modeling at the expense of gameplay mechanics.

This is because when you build a mission for SP, it’s usually pretty straightforward: you have a picture in your mind of how the scenario should play out and can guide the player in a certain way, with some flexibility. In MP, you’re setting up a scenario that needs to accommodate many players, many roles, many objectives, and the various ways those objectives can be completed. I might want to make a scenario that can have helicopters, CAS jets, fighters, naval operations, and ground operations, then allow players in each role achieve their objectives. The level of complexity can get mind boggling, but for a join in progress, continuously running mission, I don’t want to alienate the players who want to fly a Ka-50 nor the players who primarily roll with an F-14. This isn’t something you have to worry about with SP: you make it for one airframe and build the whole scenario around what it can do.

In addition, getting the AI to play ball can get really, really, really annoying. Did you know that an Su-25A set to CAS in zone will actually be more proactive about engaging targets than an A-10A with identical settings? And if you don’t set either one to ignore air targets, they will immediately deviate from their route to go attack other CAS aircraft? I can’t even set their target priority! So my choices are basically “CAS but kinda meh, and we sit around like idiots while a fighter pounds our butt with missiles,” or “CAS but not really because we hate that helicopter over there 300 miles away more than the SA-15 currently hammering us with 20 missiles.” Oh, I also can’t get the AI to properly behave defensively: SAM, AAA, or aerial threat and they’ll ditch their ordnance and run, or I set them to evade fire and they’ll do nothing but fly in circles “evading” for 20 minutes until something inevitably gets lucky.

Regarding ADA and ground assets, I vary this depending on the scenario and importance of what they’re defending. Bear in mind that ADA by default is pretty dumb and you have to employ scripting to make them work in a more realistic fashion. High value targets get high value defenses, resulting in an SA-10 with SA-15s. Medium value gets SA-11, SA-19; low value maybe SA-6 and SA-8. Front line is relegated to mobile systems like SA-19 and SA-13. For blue, it’s quite a bit harder because your options are pretty much Stinger, Roland, Hawk, and Patriot. The Rapier is, frankly, terrible, so I rarely use it. The Patriot is also damn near useless and lately I’ve seen Hawks engaging long before the Patriot does.

With that, I don’t tend to use multiples of the same system around the same site. If there’s an SA-10, it’s just one, backed up by an SA-11 or SA-6, with SA-15 and SA-19 rounding out the defense, coupled with MANPADS and smaller systems for the lower levels. The goal being to force players to work together to achieve an objective and to discourage lone wolfing (not always successful). There’s a lot of creative ways players can outsmart even the most advanced SAM systems and I’ve done a lot of them myself. Definitely not doctrinal approved and definitely dangerous as all get out – something we wouldn’t try in the real world unless the situation was critical and there were zero other options. Still, there’s something special about doing NOE with an F-16 and then toss bombing some CBU-97s over a mountain to take out an SA-10 site.

For me, the problem with DCS scenario creation is I don’t have enough flexibility within the scenario. Whether it’s getting the AI to do something or a briefing different from the classic wall o’ text, I often feel constrained in what I can do within a mission.

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One of my fav quotes.

Guilty as charged. I tell myself I’m going to learn, say, the Hornet, to the nth-degree. Then the Viper strikes, or the Harrier jumps up, and there I go
:slight_smile:

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Ok, sorta off topic, maybe


Can any mission makers here confirm the old bug [is still there] where the mission can’t tell when you’ve manned a client cockpit: I have a trigger that requires it know when you’ve chosen and are now sitting in a client (multiple client options)?

The [way back] method of going to Spectator, then choosing a slot is both annoying and, with the latest patch it seems, not even working.

Thanks.

PS: I suppose I could do it manually via an F10 menu but, well, that’s so pedestrian :slight_smile:

Via scripting this still works, but I haven’t used the trigger functionality.

Actually, I mis-spoke: I simply have a time-delay (> x-seconds) before it will fire, loading a script. Unregard - I think the last updated did sumtin funky so I need to refactor the script.

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One of the biggest helps I’ve had for focus was @Scoop getting the hornet. Before we started flying and learning together I never really focused on learning one aircraft, I am able to cold start most of the ones I own but since we fly together on hollo pointe most weekends I find it easier to stick with the hornet most of the time and enjoy the joint learning experience. I read a lot about the hornet and watch lots of videos hoping to find stuff to share with scoop and make the flights more interesting for us both. Even though I’m actually not that particularly fond of the hornet as a machine (even though it is amazing to fly)

I’m very familiar with the Sabre as I fly it a lot on my own because its beautiful and great fun to jump in and fly quickly. I really wish I had more time to learn the harrier better and the tomcat too. But the one I find myself most upset about lately is the A10c. I have owned that module for soooooo long and have never got around to sitting down and learning it.

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At this point it’s Hornet just easier for you most likely.

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You should be able to wrap your head around the hog quite easily having mastered the plastic bug. In a sense the hog avionics are like a more limited earlier version of the hornet’s.
No radar. The tpod and nav systems are the most intricate about the hog, and you only really need to know about the tpod to be tactically significant. Now being the expert hornet driver that you are, you already know how to operate a tpod like a boss surgeon.

Get your hog on brother, you’ll brrrrt it! Oink oink motherlovers!

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They are easy to learn and start up I find
so are the WW2 birds
a lot less easy to fly in though. The 19 happily stalls into the ground should one attempt a turn at low speeds.

The other day in the MiG-19 I passed a guy in a Viggen who saw me and went straight up. After debating whether I should just fly on I decided to drop the tanks
unfortunately a quick press on the wrong cover and button deployed the drag chute instead

Sadly I couldn’t remember where the jettison button was and much to my annoyance did not act like a shield against the oncoming AIM-9


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Defective Soviet product for sure!!!

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In Soviet Union I expect only pilot gets blame!

Stick Nuclear launch button next to Drag Chute button ah good idea!

The MiG-19 has a great feature where in 90% of missions one of the drop tanks detaches itself and flies into the nearest primary school. Wondering why that never caught on with other jet OEMs.

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