One of the things that bothered me about F4AF (especially the Bosnian theatre) was that the OPFOR had a lot more aircraft in the air than the real Serbian Air Force had. There were only a limited number of Serb aircraft that successfully sortied out of their bases and most of those were engaged by NATO air defenses and either chased back to the barn or shot down. Whatever DCS does (and I agree that the maps are a little on the smallish side for a fully dynamic campaign), I would hope that the ORBATs on either side are a realistic number of aircraft. There are have not been many âace-in-a-dayâ incidents since War II.
For DCSâs scale, I think the old Longbow 2 model probably would work fairly close. Itâs similar to how IL2FB and onward handled their dynamic campaigns.
To me, the most important part is the logistics and management of that. Limited airframes, fuel, equipment, and munitions in order to prevent just spamming AIM-120Cs, JSOWs, etc. willy nilly. So you had better take care of your aircraft so you have something to fight with and you had also better be smart with how you employ weaponry and equipment. This can all be done at the squadron level or lower; we donât need to be in control of the whole conflict, just a small piece of it.
Secondly, we have got to get rid of the impersonal nature of it all. For example, we really need this stuff:
Now, I realize that MAC wants to do some of this, but DCS needs it too. Donât make the mistake that IL2FB did and make a dynamic campaign that doesnât immerse the player.
Iâm OK with breaks from reality, because it is a game after all, but Iâm tired of going through a briefing that doesnât make me feel like Iâm part of the situation, followed by a debriefing thatâs just a listing of events. Thereâs a lot of good examples out there of how to do it, but Iâll follow the Longbow 2 model and just say I want to feel like Iâm sitting in a ready room and get access to more information than Iâd ever want: commanderâs intent, weather, intelligence, the works. I want to look at what my mission is, who Iâm working with, what the impact will be, and how it all comes together. After the mission, I want to see what went right, what went wrong, the impacts and consequences of what weâve done. Make me feel like Iâm there.
100% agreed!
Re this, thereâs such a thing as too much realism too, though. Thereâs not many jet fighter pilots who can claim to have an air-to-air kill these days - mostly they fly long sorties where no engagements happen. While I like the sim to act like the real thing to an extent, if I fly a fighter over Kosovo Iâd like there to be enough MiGs that things get exciting and I get to bag a Serb or two. Flight sims are entertainment after all.
Spot on. This is the criticism I see made against DCS/IL2 from simmers who thoroughly enjoyed Longbow / EF2000 / European Air War.
Iâd like to see training and ranks that mean something tangible, like authorizing the use of an extra expensive weapon, or allowing transfer to a squadron that is flying a specific type of mission.
Iâd like to see wingmen that get better as they complete missions. Ones you care about and go the extra mile to protect, rather than using for general fodder. I wouldnât even mind a customization and âlevel upâ system, allowing you to create a wingman character and allocate points towards a specific task after mission completion. Think X-Com or BattleTech. Iâd probably spend a happy while creating a blonde female A-10 pilot with the callsign âPeachesâ.
From there, create a dynamic environment where your actions move the goalposts. Balance it with limited resources so that you have to make choices.
I agree with bearhedge, and personally i dont like to âkill fish in barrelâ style campaigns and missions.
There could easily be campaign options, user can chose real life numbers and maybe bit fictional so enemy can fight back too.
i agree 1200% ,
New Syrian map is bigger than old maps, yes not 100% sure but looks like there is beirut in new screen shots and all airbases what they told to include earlier = maybe whole syria ? + sea to carrier operations ?
So am IâŠthatâs why I drink the way I do.
Iâm probably in the minority but I hate the medals thing. 14 CMOHs??? Really?? Iâm pretty sure only a couple of people haver ever received just two. I had about 26 years in the Navy before I received a LOM.
Keep my stats? Sure. Give me a âGood Jobâ message every now and then? Why not. Even give me an air medal for something really awesome like âAce in a Dayâ OK. But the rest of it? No. I laugh at the medals that DCS hands out now.
I remember Gilman Louieâs âhyper realismâ comment about the Falcon DC. Because it was a hyper conflict, certainly.
I think there should be two settings for the campaignâa true ORBAT, where you have actual realistic constraints on planes and ordnance there, and an âembiggenedâ one where you have inflated numbers of planes on both sides with more supply, more ships, more ground, etc. HOWEVER, there should still be limits.
Make it possible for one side to run out of plane X or helo Y, make it possible for there to be no Phoenix missiles left!
As long as the victory conditions are flexible enough. I donât want to be winning and then find out that because we had our last bomber Z shot down, we can no longer take out target group W (thatâs on the bench, for those that remember) so we lose.
Germany winning WWII because no one could successfully blow up Hitlerâs bunker as the special guided bomb is used up is not a realistic outcome.
Youâre just jealous because you sucked at Longbow 2.
But otherwise, I agree, though I would look at historical evidence for when pilots received medals and what the conditions were, then use that as a template for awards. Though I donât think itâs absolutely necessary to have such a mechanic; we just need to be drawn into the game.
Historically, Eagle Dynamics has not been very good at the kind of immersion weâre talking about. Do they do a good job of making you feel like youâre doing all the procedures necessary to simulate a real combat flying machine? Sure. That kind of immersion is their forte. Do they do a good job of making you feel like youâre a pilot in an air arm deployed to combat? Not really, no. Their game mechanics are complicated, but sterile.
I still firmly believe Microprose got that part down to an art.
Dammit, Iâm not crying⊠Itâs ninjas with onions.
I agree completely on this! If I remember right Falcon 4 got this much better, in terms of both promotion and medals being awarded (also, donât forget that aviator types really like to give each other awards more than anybody else who actually works for a living- took me 9 years to get a NAM, after getting 3 Captainâs Letters for helping do stuff that actually kept the ship able to do its mission- meanwhile a guy I knew in Supply got a NAM for baking cookies for the Wardroom), in terms of timing and difficulty associated with earning them. If the current DCS system got an overhaul, thatâd be a good start.
(As a point of reference, Captainâs Letter = âGood boyâ pat on the head message)
Right, they make great simulators in the same way that a disembodied cockpit of a 737 in a hangar you climb up a staircase to get into and look out at a quartet of projector screens is a simulator.
Some of those older sims took a lot of shortcuts on systems modeling, procedures, etcâŠbut they simulated the feeling of being a pilot in a conflict to a better degree.
However, itâs not ED alone. Iâd say no sim released since 2003 or so has managed that.
MPS, Janeâs/EA/Origin, SH, DI, a lot of the classic sim devs did, but when they all failed and it was just a few Russian devs, MS CFS, and things like Strike Fighters, it was pretty obvious that sim flying in the 21st century would not be like the late 20th.
Medals done right, can be a lot of fun.
I remember the Microprose B-17 Simulator for Amiga, back in the days. That one was more of a Crew Resource Management sim, than anything else.
After a mission or so, you could decide which crewmembers that deserved a medal. Their morale increased and they did a better job.
I would love to see a modern equivalent of that sim!
Resource management is a dimension I really miss in sims of today.
Again i have to agree with Troll and JediMaster.
But lets wait what ed gets done.
Probably trueâŠI donâs have the statistics, but it feels about right. There is also a huge difference between services. The USAF gives medals for completing various training courses and overall seems to have a lower threshold for awarding medalsâŠbased on 29 years of anecdotal observations. Canât speak for the Army. The USMC seems pretty tight on awards.
The Navy, as @Navynuke99 indicated, has set the bar higher for awardsâboth in numbers of awards and level of award. Within the Navy, again as @Navynuke99 also described, different communities, air, surface warfare, submariners, supply, intel, etc. have their own âcriteriaââŠreally more their own interpretation of the regulations governing awards.
When I was in command (had the authority to award up to a Navy Commendation Medal; aka an NCM) I tended to have a strict interpretation of the regulations - I didnât have a problem with downgrading an award request if it didnât meet the criteria. However, strict interpretation is not necessarily a bad thing.
For example, the regulations state that if you take action to try to save somebodyâs life, in a non-combat or deployed environment, the proper award is a NCM. (The Life Saving medal for combat / deployed).
We had a student in IS A-School, a Seaman (E3), who during a local charity 10K run, stopped to give CPR to a runner who had a heart attack right in front of him. (Other runners just ran right by). That met the non-combat/deployed life saving criteria. I had admin write up the award paperwork. I signed it and pinned it on the Sailor later that week, at the daily A-School afternoon formation.
E3s just donât receive NCMs. When you read the criteria for a NCM, it is more aligned with the responsibilities of a E7 / O4. But I had an Seaman that met the criteria. So he got the appropriate medal. Period.
WellâŠof courseâŠthey were probably really good cookiesâŠand your point is?
Nice! We had an MM3 pull a guy out of a burning car on the side of I-64, and all he got was a NAM.
Did it just get shadier in here?
Seriously though, maybe thatâs why medals are awarded so quickly in DCS?
I suppose there are 2 ways to do itâŠhave more medals overall, with low-levels one easy to get so a majority of people wind up getting them (sort of a âproof youâre doing a good jobâ thing) with the high-level ones the tough to achieve ones. That of course means having a lot of those âattaboyâ on your uniform doesnât mean much to your fellows as they have them, too, but the high level ones will still get the attention because of their scarcity.
Or, you can have fewer medals and make getting any of them a serious accomplishment, so on average youâre lucky if you get one in your career unless youâre a lifer or pull some serious achievements in combat.
Then having ANY on your uniform is notable.
I donât know if there is any serious research into which works better for morale, itâs probably steeped in tradition more than anything else.