Do you feel that’s what I did in my replies to you, in this thread…?
If so I must appologize for being interpreted in a completely different manner than was intended.
No, I was referring to this. It’s a common argument I see come up all the time, but it conflates whinging with valid criticism. The majority of us that criticise the EA model don’t complain about incorrect armored glass, we complain about things that directly affect functionality and should have been caught in internal testing or included in the initial release. Jabbers’ video on the F-16 release covers this well, and is the same position I take (and supposedly ED stopped promoting his channel after this criticism).
There is a huge difference between “the glass of the Fw190 HUD is not perfect” and an aircraft shipping with invincibility unless you manage to snipe the pilot (Viper EA). Too often this difference is discounted or ignored completely in the discussion.
Another argument that I see come up–I don’t think I’ve seen it here–is “entitlement” for wanting a baseline standard for EA modules. I question who’s more entitled: those who expect a certain level of quality from an EA release, or those who demand EA instead of waiting for a finished product? EA only exists so long as the consumers demand it through their wallet votes. Food for thought.
For the record, I thought the initial state of the Hornet and Supercarrier EA were reasonable.
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If you had actually read my post instead of reacting to it, you would see that we were making the same point.
Thanks for stopping by with your comments @bignewy - it is nice to hear perspectives from someone that has the temperature of the things that are going on at the development house.
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I interpret that as just making the point of the argument.
Sure, some bugs are bigger than others, but does it really matter what it is? To me it’s just another bug. Ok, the F-16 was really broken, but instead of focusing on that, I enjoyed what could be enjoyed…and waited for the next update.
That’s not how I see it.
EA is more of a crowd funding scheme. It’s a way for the developer to get paid while making. Without EA, I doubt ED could support so many long development periods. Without it, development of intricate systems and anything else that takes time, wouldn’t be possible. Not without solid economical backing. And besides, why not make your customers back the development from the start, instead of the end…?
If we had several different competing developers, who all funded their projects differently, we could vote with our wallet. But that’s not the case. And Early Access, open beta, crowd funding, seems to be the economical foundation for many game developers these days. I guess there’s a reason…
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No problem, I should drop in more often.
Lots of opinions and its good to see.
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Crowd funding is still voting from the wallet though. If the consumers have confidence that the return on their investment is worth it, they will put money into the crowd funding. If they don’t have confidence in getting a worthwhile return, then they’ll hold their money. Similar ideas, from my perspective.
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Exactly. Just like Early Access, from my viewpoint.
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Another sim that I would happily dive back into if they added native VR support! I can’t wait to swing a Hellcat around the boat again. (Admittedly, I haven’t tried VorpX and OpenTrack in Il-2 since my OG RIft. Might need to give it a try again with the G2.)
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The il2 great battles does have native VR support… And nothing beats commanding a tiger tank in VR 
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I have seen far too many people use the excuse of “well if they’re accepting money for it and you can use it, then it’s released, whatever they call it, and therefore I expect XYZ”.
EA is a new form of preordering. In the past, a preorder guaranteed you a copy of the physical media so you didn’t leave the store empty handed, or later have to wait long past release day for it to ship because there were no copies left after the preorders were fulfilled. With digital, it’s no longer an issue of getting a copy.
Instead, the benefit of the preorder is to get
- a small discount (not as large as later ones will be, but after initial availability it will take some time to get that)
- the ability to use an alpha\beta version before final release, so you don’t need to wait as long and can learn the working systems sooner so you’re not learning all of it at once (although some systems are inevitably changed meaning you must unlearn how you did it at first)
- support the developer with a cash flow that isn’t just a donation, but this of course is a per-person matter of whether it’s worthwhile.
Preordering was thus relabeled “early access” to emphasize the unreleased nature of the released software (because for some reason “beta” was no longer en vogue, although we do still have a separate beta branch) but still some people can not or will not grasp or embrace that concept.
There is no right or wrong for preordering/buying early access, it’s up to each individual. However, I think it IS wrong to buy it in EA and then complain about it because it’s not finished, the F-16’s atypical alpha release notwithstanding as ED had created a certain expectation with previous releases that the F-16 totally missed. Yet that exception doesn’t invalidate the established process unless it’s repeated.
Far too many of the complainers seem to instead imply “I didn’t have the willpower to hold off purchasing until release as I see all these pictures and videos of others enjoying it, only to find that MY enjoyment is now lacking because of the missing/broken/incorrect features X, Y, and Z so I’m going to wail LOUDLY until they prioritize fixing X, Y, and Z, even if others wail about 1, 2, and 3 because those are not important to me.”
Naturally, I have no sympathy for them. First world problems. If you have impulse control issues, that is not ED’s fault.
The amount of time you will need to wait for it to be “working” is independent of when you purchase it, so either you buy it now and fly it lacking until the date when it’s fixed, or you wait and buy it once it’s fixed and miss out on the fun and frustration between now and then. Choose and live with your decision. I have done it myself on occasion, bought it and found I was going to have to shelve it till later. I lived with it, I didn’t cry it was ED’s problem for not having it ready enough for me yet.
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I would like to just add that there was nothing wrong, from my perspective, with Viper EA. All the EA lunch features were clearly stated by ED back then iirc.
Sure, we can say that the ‘wrong’ could had been the false expectations of the customers which were not cooled down by ED that ‘this EA is different from the previous or next EA’.
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Yep. People need to be able to express their views. I’m getting tired of the concessions we make for people we give here to those that don’t respect that, just because we agree with them.
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@JediMaster that was an excellent post and I totally agree with your sentiments.
The problem with the ones who wail the loudest is they are often the smallest minority users. This sense of entitlement is something that really upsets me as it is not like they have been hoodwinked into buying something that doesn’t even resemble what they were expecting (looking at you X-rebirth you pig) all of this is clearly communicated. You are not receiving a Finished product. You are paying to recieve a work in progress.
I often wonder who the complaint brigade would complain too if the developers went bust? No more content for DCS due to lack of funding.
With the size of the DCS user base (which is pretty sizeable for a flightsim TBF) being such a niche product in the grand scheme, the work and the time that goes into the modules and THE BASE game represents a significant time and monetary investment on the behalf of the development teams that, in my opinion makes the pre order and early access system not only convenient but actually necessary for the survival of the system as a whole.
You seriously do not have to buy every module, you dont need to buy early, you are welcome to wait for a sale (they are FREQUENT!!) but if you were as excited as me for the release of the tomcat or any other plane in the store then sometimes it might be in your interest to buy into it early. I will personally support Heatblur as much as possible as I really want them to be the ones to release the A6. I like the work they do and I feel confident to support them. The rest of the developers don’t have the total support that I give HB blur but I’m actually happy to support the right product. Looking at you ED…Hind. maybe even the Mossie.
Right product. Right buyer.
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I tried the Golf Club VR… It’s a neat concept but about the best compliment I could give for it is that you can hit your golf bag and throw your club after you inevitably wildly screw up your shot.
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For me it is this way: I stopped buying DCSW modules until they fix the issues that bother me. I also stopped showing DCSW to other people.
That’s all. I don’t run around and try to persuade people to do one thing or the other.
I spent way too much time testing, reporting and discussing issues and getting negative reactions (or none at all) by both ED and the community, so I just stopped until things change.
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Sounds incredibly realistic!
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