Heatblur F-14 and Forrestal Update

dcs

#2489


#2490

DCS missile model :frowning: , least its WIP


#2491

I’m confused by why Jabbers was testing the AIM-54A. He stresses the difference in motors between the two As and the C as the largest determination in performance between the three variants, but honestly I’d consider that the least important differentiating factor. At the missile’s effective range a the different motor isn’t going to make a huge amount of difference. The majority of missiles looked to miss because of guidance issues. Part of the upgrades the C brought along were upgrades to the sensors and guidance logic that facilitated greater performance against maneuvering targets.

This is all hard to express in DCS because the ED missile and sensor logic is so rudimentary, but I would expect it to manifest in things like greater CM rejection, greater active range, or a narrower notch (even though notching missiles isn’t a thiiiiing). I’m curious what, if any difference there is between the As and the Cs.

Overall I’m a little underwhelmed by the missiles ability to hold a track target. I’ll wait for someone talking about what, if any advantages the C offers in game before really getting worried. It’s also worth noting that it’s DCS, and missiles never work as well as they ought in DCS :smile:

Does make you wonder what HB could do if they got their hands on the guidance code though :thinking:


#2492

Ah, I see you have experienced a missile hit rate of 16% as well! It gets annoying to have a perfect shot and watch the AI bump the elevators and the missile sails right on past them within spitting distance…


#2493

Oh man if only I was half as good as the AI at dodging AA-10s!


#2494

I don’t know nuthin’ about nuthin’, so take the following data with a knowledge that I don’t know anything…

This is all with Jester working the radar in the back seat.

F-14B at FL370 vs Su-33 at FL370 head on from 200nm

Detected by Jester at 83 nm.
AIM-54C shot at 78 nm (missed, overflew)
Su-33 starts ejecting chaff but no maneuvering at 22nm-ish

AIM-54C shot at 26 nm (missed, overflew) - motor was burning when it went “active” and missile pulled 16.3G, after motor cutoff, max observed was 10G, but still missed, Su-33 was in a curving maneuver


Second time

F-14B at FL420 Mach 1.15
Su-33 at FL370 Mach 1-ish

Jester detected at 88nm, AIM-54C shot at 85nm (miss overflew)
AIM-54C shot at 75nm (miss overflew)
AIM-54C shot at 65nm (miss overflew)
AIM-54C shot at 55nm (miss overflew)
AIM-54C shot at 22nm (hit)

I don’t know anything about the back seat. Would it be possible (in the real F-14) to command the missile to go active sooner? Because it looks like the missile is just going active too late, pointing its nose down, and then doesn’t have the aerodynamic ability to make the correction. I get the feeling if the missile could go active 30 seconds sooner, it would perhaps be able to do that. The rear cockpit is probably not complete enough to manually command that maybe (if it is possible)…but I’m not positive of that.


#2495

How well does it work against bombers?


#2496

Very good-ish. I killed an AWACS at around 80nm yesterday…


#2497

IMO, that’s really the important metric. If it can splash Backfires with regularity, then it’s good enough for me. I’ll use Sparrow, Sidewinder, and most importantly, the gun for everything else.


#2498

IRL flipping this switch down will set the missile to active. I don’t expect it will work like that in DCS due to what I imagine are current engine limitations. I’ve also heard from @klarsnow’s constant attempts to tweak the loft curve of the AMRAAM, that the DCS guidance model begins to break down when the missile comes in at a steep angle out of a loft like that. It doesn’t maneuver at all like one would expect for an efficient intercept.


#2499

That’s the first problem. As discussed earlier, Jester was a pilot, NFWS’s XO in Topgun. :wink:

This sort of gets into my earlier posts about the HB Tomcat being “too much fun” (or was that in another thread?)

Regardless, I am fairly sure no aircrew in my old squadron would take a 78 Nm shot at a Flanker…and not just because the Su-33 wasn’t in service back then. :grin:

The F-14/AWG-9/AIM-54 combination was for Fleet Defense. Those Phoenix missiles were designed and fielded to take out Soviet bombers armed with long range ASCMs, before they launched those ASCMs at the fleet’s ships. Could the Phoenix be used at shorter ranges against fighters? Absolutely. But that was not their original purpose.

For @BeachAV8R, I would be interested to see the results of a similar set up with about 4 x Tu-22M Backfires. Tomcat with a 2-2-4 load out. The idea is to kill all the Backfires before they can get past the F-14. Probably need to play with the Backfire Options – an “ignore threat” ROE to simulate loyal communists pressing the attack no matter what…and some of the evasive ROEs to better simulate reality…although pressing the attack to get into AS-4 launch range was probably the Soviet doctrine…all they really needed was one or two hits on the carrier.


#2500

DCS is more lenient, takes around 4 in game. :smiley:


#2501

The inner nerd in me wants that T-shirt!


#2502

Are you talking to sink, or put out of action? Because The Sum of All Fears was pretty accurate in how to completely remove a carrier’s ability to not only fight, but even quarterback a fight, and that was what, 2 hits?


#2503

This season, it’s Mudspike Zazzle pour homme


#2504

Now we’re talking! :sunglasses:


#2505

I just tried that switch and saw no change in Phoenix behavior, so that must not be wired up yet…


#2506

I wouldn’t expect it to do anything until there’s a larger rework of how active radar missiles function in DCS. That’s outside of HB’s wheel house.


#2507

Lemme run that test…


#2508

Alright…quick and dirty, and I don’t know that it meets all the criteria:

4x AIM-54C
2x AIM-7(? - can’t remember which)
2x AIM-9M

Started at 200nm with 4 Tu-22s heading at me. Me at around FL300 and them at FL350 or so. I gave them some spread because I needed to be able to sort them using Jester. I don’t know about the advanced TWS modes and how you can ripple fire (like I said, I don’t know nothin’)…

Cool looking appearance on the display. That white highlighting cycles through the targets…so that must be some sort of TWS ( @near_blind?)…

First detection was around 166nm…able to sort them via Jester…

From previous experience, I knew not to attempt any shots beyond 90nm or so…so waited for them to get a bit closer. I lost lock a few times (maybe ECM?)…

Shots at individual targets from North to South (left to right) with one missile for each bomber:

Target #1 81nm - missed
Target #2 65nm - hit
Target #3 48nm - hit
Target #4 39nm - hit

The reason for the relatively large distances between shots is I was going Mach 1.2, the bombers going probably Mach 1.0 or something. And I was having trouble dropping lock and relocking…it takes a few interactions with Jester and I’m slow…

So three of the four targets down, switched to an AIM-7 and cleaned up the last guy at 10nm or so…

Someone more experienced could do it faster and better. I don’t know how it would work against low level Tu-22s hugging the ocean…that would be another test I could try (?)…