Look what showed up this afternoon!!
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What a great review of First Man! Youâll fit right in here with technical knowledge like you show. Fantastic work!
Iâm just finishing off another read through of "red storm risingâ and ill be moving onto your audiobook. @BeachAV8R and me can compare notes 
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Thatâs great! Very fast delivery. Canât wait to hear your comments.
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Appreciate your thoughts. Itâs wonderful to be here! Always love talking about the X-15. Have not read Red Storm Rising in a long time. That was my favorite after Hunt for Red October.
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Thank you for the detailed review of First man @x15gal. Early negativity kept me from going to see it and your review confirmed that early buzz.
Wheels
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@x15gal,
Good to see you here at Mudspike! 
I must see if I can find your book⊠I have read the old âRocketship X-15â by Myron Gubitz when I was a kid 
I have seen several negative reviews of âFirst Manâ and very few positive ones.
The technical parts are just that. Technical. For 99% of the viewers they are way over their heads anyway. A director often tries to convey feelings instead of facts. They rarely manages this for those of us with more than average knowledge of the technicalities. I think almost every space and aviation movie gets this wrong, to a degree. They often exaggerate danger, as if it wasnât dangerous enough. They make bad guys even more evil and heroes even more heroic.
I went to a lecture by Jeff Skiles, a couple of years ago. He was Sullys Co-pilot at the famous Hudson landing. He talked a little about the movie and interestingly enough he said that everything in the movie, happened in real life. They rearranged the order on some minor events, but it happened. The only part that wasnât real was the NTSB hearing and how the NTSB investigators acted. In the movie they are the bad guys, trying to pin this on Sully, who then sets the record straight. That didn ât happen. The NTSB were totally professional. But⊠And this is interesting. That part of the movie depicts how Jeff and Sully felt. It took them both quite some time to get over the what-if alternatives and accept that they had saved everybodyâs life, that day. They were the ones questioning the decision they made and if it was the right oneâŠ
But how do you get that out to the movie audience? You could of course have the actors discuss this amongst themselves, or âhearâ them think. But every Hollywood movie needs bad guys, so the NTSB got to be the Spanish Inquisition. 
But back to âFirst Manâ. I donât know half of what you know about it. Iâve read the book, basically. And I have read some articles about it.
What I find interesting about the reviews is the contrast between those who knew Armstrong in a professional or maybe even social capacity and those who were his family. Neils sons, Rick and Mark, both have gone on record to say that the way Gosling and the movie depicts both his humor and personality, is spot on, while others claim different.
I guess you will never know anybody in the same way their family know them. We all wear masks, to a certain degree, when in public. Being the son of Neil Armstrong and being his friend or colleague, are different things. Neil would naturally treat his sons and friends differently. That doesnât mean that those who have seen this or that side of Neil, are wrong. They just havenât seen the same side. And since his sons contributed to the movie, that probably skewed the movie toward their view of their father instead of the view the rest of the world have.
And this is where I think the movie got it wrong, because it didnât show the side of Neil Armstrong we knew, or thought we knew. It shows the view of him that only his sons know.
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Loved Gubitzâs book, and there were also a lot of others that were published very early in the X-15 program. The most notable of those is Scott Crossfieldâs âAlways Another Dawn.â It should still be in print if youâre interested.
Neilâs kids, Mark and Rick, have both said in public that âFirst Manâ was an excellent and accurate representation of their dad. The problem is that they had producer status on the movie, so they literally had a financial stake in how well it was received. In other words they are going to say it was amazing if it would have gotten people into the theaters. Unfortunately, that was not the case. I do know for a fact that Mark and Rick have definitely had a different opinion in public versus private about their dad previously, and I speak from specific personal experience.
Several years ago, when NASA officially held a ceremony in order to change the name from the Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards AFB to the Armstrong FRC, both Rick and Mark attended the event. They spoke to the audience at the ceremony about how honored their father would have been to see the name change. They spoke eloquently about all he had done at Edwards, and how it would have been so amazing if Neil had known of the name change.
However, after the official event was over, I took both of them aside and asked them, âWith your fatherâs penchant for avoiding the limelight, and his admiration for someone like Hugh Dryden, did they truly believe that their father would have approved of the name change?â Both Rick and Mark admitted that there was no way Neil would have ever approved the removal of Drydenâs name. They even went so far as to say that no matter whose name had been on the FRC, Neil would not have wanted that type of recognition for himself. So saying something publicly doesnât mean they actually meant it, or that it is true because they knew him better than those who werenât family. This is just them trying to put a positive face on something that their father most definitely would not have liked.
The director of the movie has said that the way the story was told in âFirst Manâ was his vision, and his alone. I would say that has to be accurate because no one in Neilâs family ever said anything prior to this movie that he was anything like what was depicted.
Jim Hansen wrote a truly excellent book, and it can be said that he knew Neil better than anyone who was not directly related. His words, and those to whom he spoke to in his research, donât match the movie in almost every sense. For myself, I knew Neil, but certainly not like Hansen did, and I know he wasnât like that at all from my personal knowledge. One of the people I interviewed for my X-15 book was Paul Bikle, who was probably Neilâs best friend. Paul was also Neilâs boss when he was flying the X-15. His very candid interview really brought Neil to life in ways that have not been talked about much in public. An example is that Neil was nearly fired by Bikle because of multiple screwups. Even Hansen never had the opportunity to talk with Paul as he died long before Jim took up his writing project.
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Well, like I said I just have the popular mainstream knowledge about Neil Armstrong.
Economical interest in a subject may indeed affect the truth.
If Neil Armstrongs sons lie about their father in public, it will be interpreted as truth by people like me, who only have that public knowledge.
Please note that Iâm not saying you lie about your experiences with Armstrong or his sons, here. It is important for me to make that clear, as english is not my first language and there may be nuances lost, or unintentionally added, in translation.
Itâs just that itâs impossible for me, and for most people, to know what the truth is.
So when Armstrongs sons says âthatâs how dad wasâ, I believe that to be a correct representation of their recollection and experience of their dad. Now, knowing how father/sons relations can be, it can of course be total BS and/or influenced by economical incentives. But thatâs the info I am privy to. You, on the other hand, have your personal experiences to draw from.
But how can I know who I should listen to�
And I forgot to addâŠ
Maybe we just have to accept that it is impossible to condense a biography down to two hours on a screen and that First Man is flawed, in part, because of this.
You know, I can look at a GeeBee with a hint of fear yet believe that people flew it. Similarly I see the 104 with trepidation and understanding. Likewise the X-1, the Voyager, the Soyuz and so on. But I look at the X-15 on the cover of Michelleâs book an I have a hard time believing anyone was able to muster the fortitude to fly it. Incredible. That period between WWI and the end of Vietnam forged a generation of makers and doers that will never be matched.
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I think this is largely it. And I think there may be a starting point (Point A) and an ending point (Point X) and maybe the people closest to Armstrong may have felt differently about the points between A and X, but Iâll bet the general public and the people who knew him all reached somewhat similar conclusions by the time the movie took its alternate path of describing Armstrongâs life from Point A to X - and that is that he was an incredible professional, a unique person, and a hero in every sense of the word. Different paths, and maybe some inaccuracies in his portrayal, but in the end the outcome is that we all respect and treasure him for his accomplishments. I guess it always factored into my mind that the movie was a bit âartsyâ so would not have more of the humorous aspects of Armstrongâs personality.
Fantastic discussion and Iâm enjoying the unique perspectives that Michelle brings to the table. Iâm looking forward to diving into the book!
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Yes, I got that feeling as well. The director said he wanted to show a different side of Armstrong, that wasnât previously known. The movie received critisism for not showing the planting of the flag, for instance. Even Buzz Aldrin commented on that. But the director replied that we all know that happened. He wanted to focus on everything else.
I donât think that was the best idea, but it shows what kind of movie they tried to make.
And, as I wrote earlier, itâs impossible to judge what is true and false based on the publically available information about Neil Armstrong. Especially when his kids endorse the movie. But maybe they just wanted to show the somber side of his personality, since we all have seen the other sideâŠ? Maybe the movie gets it right as a balance to the the popular view of the man? Itâs impossible for me to judge. But itâs incredibly interesting to hear the views of people who do know more than the official view, like @x15gal here.
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Another lecture Iâve listned to was from the ESA Head of Mission Operations for Mission Rosetta, Dr. Paolo Ferri.
The TL;DR is that they landed a probe on a comet. An incredible feat in itself. But what was really impressive about that mission was that they started planning it in the early 90âs, launched in 2004 and landed ten years laterâŠ! Just think about the challenge of recruiting the engineers for such a project and keep them going for the duration. Basically asking people to invest their careers in a project that probably would fail twenty years from now⊠Much like NASA during the Apollo, these ESA engineers had to invent or predict the tools they would need a decade or two later. When they launched they didnât have the landing software for the probe because they needed vital information about the comet that they wouldnât get until the craft got closerâŠ
So, those makers and doers are still around.
Canât wait to see what they come up with next.
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Sometimes, I thinkâŠman, Iâm really lazy. Like I should be outside right now fixing my riding lawnmowerâŠI have the parts all ready to go - need to replace the rack and pinion steering. But it seems like such a JOB.
Then, I see a gif like that which shows how Rosetta rendezvoused, and all the planning and engineering and coding and a million things that had to go just soâŠand it confirms - I am lazyâŠ
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I came to the same conclusion, listening to Dr. Ferris presentation.
That and that Iâm stupid.
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Iâm very sorry to hear the simulator did not work on your machine, Michelle. Hopefully some day indeed. I do fully agree with your sentiments on âApollo 13â, it was on TV not a long time ago and it was the only time in recent history I parked myself in front of it with the intent to watch something specific. Iâll see if I can find a place to watch âThe right stuffâ as I had not even heard of it until now.
Naturally, I canât say if the representation of Neilâs character is accurate or not. But perhaps it would not be the first time that somebodyâs nature is friendly and full of banter towards friends and colleagues but more harsh and dry towards family such as children, simply because he wanted them to be as successful in life as he was.
Please donât mind the discussion shifting from rocket planes to fixing lawnmowers and the comet 67P landings, itâs a Mudspike tradition to take things as far off-topic as possible
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This is very true. So when we end up talking about whether there are penguins in the Arctic AND the Antarctic, do not be surprisedâŠ
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Hey⊠Careful!
First, itâs a riding lawnmower.
Second, repairing it may not be a huge endeavour for mankind, but it is (a) big thing for @BeachAV8R.
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One small step against weedsâŠone giant leap for fescueâŠ
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You are definitely right where it is hard to imagine what some of these pilots accomplished, especially with regard to something like the X-15. When I spoke to the pilots, especially those who came into the program later, they expressed astonishment at what they were sometimes expected to do. Early in the program with pilots like Crossfield, Walker, and White, they were testing the aircraft at lower speeds and altitudes as they got the feel for things. Everything was done in small increments as they expanded the flight envelope. But then, later in the program, the new guys come aboard like Thompson, Knight, and Dana, and their first flight assignments were to take the X-15 out to Mach 4 and 5! They never had the opportunity to see how she flew at those lower speeds, they just had to buckle in and go for broke! Milt famously said that lighting off in an X-15 was tantamount to riding a bull, and that it was the first airplane he ever flew where he was most happy when the engine shut off!
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Sryan, yes I keep hoping that something will turn up with regard to an X-15 simulator that will work on my system. This new one might work on Macs, but my current system may be too old to use it.
âThe Right Stuffâ is an interesting movie in that it glossed over many facts in order to get across the feeling of what it was like in the country as we first sent men into space. There is a new miniseries based on the same Tom Wolfe book that is coming out next month, and is produced by National Geographic (although strangely it will air on Disney+). I have some high hopes for how it will come out, but then I did for âFirst Manâ as well. I worked with one of the producers of the new miniseries, and he was looking for authenticity, so Iâm keeping my fingers crossed. There had been hope that this version would also include the X-15, as Wolfe did in his book, but in the end they decided on sticking with Mercury only. The nice thing about that is that maybe in the future the X-15 might get a miniseries of its own.
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