Sim vs Reality Tactics


#21

What boomerang said, also objectives beyond killing the other guys with constraints that force confrontations and decision making.

For example a target that one side has to bomb, with a very tight time window to do so. Losses be damned the only thing that counts is getting a single bomb on the target inside of a five-ten minute window.

You will see drastically different tactics if you start playing with those kind of constraints that will force players to stop mucking about in the weeds or immediately turning cold when shot at.


#22

That whole paragraph was like a mini AAR. And it brings up a good point. In some MP action, the success of the mission is is more important than individual A2A kills (Heresy, I know, coming from a former Fighter Squadron member, but there it is).

Likewise your “SAMbush” tactic (yep, it has a name!) is often overlooked…but as you showed, highly effective. It ca be used over land, as you did, or over water–pulling the enemy into AGEIS threat ring will ruin his day. In fact in some fleet defense situations we wold have put a Fighter Engagement Zone (FEZ) out about 100 Nm from the carrier and then establish two or more Missile Engagement Zones (MEZs) closer in. You set it up so that there is one or more “corridors” between MEZs for friendly fighters to RTB (you also use “RTB profiles”–altitude, speed, heading so fighters can RTB without IFF). The enemy, not knowing where the MEZs are, can easily be pulled into one chasing you. Can probably work it using Triggers in DCS…or that DCS AI doesn’t allow for Blue-on-Blue…can you turn off your IFF in DCS?

Actually might be worth a bit of study. If I were in uniform, I’d ask the guys at TOPGUN and CNA to consider it. The CNA guys can inject experiments into C2X, JTFEX and the like. Can be a pain for us out on the boat but the get their data. CNA=Center for Naval Analysis…a bunch of 50 lbs brains in DC.

I hit like for the rest of the comments–Great Discussion! :slightly_smiling_face:


#23

Well, in DCS i like to reproduce the exciting and challanging stuffs i used to do when a real cockpit was my office. 90% of stuffs were routine actions (very often boring and ripetitive ones)…but the ramaining 10% was a blast :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:.
For example…INS alignement is part of that 90% that i preferr to pass by.(sometimes all the startup :laughing:)…
A good coordinated attack to an artillery site with my mates, in a properly briefed flight and employing the tactics i was trained to apply is what i consider a blast :wink::call_me_hand:


#24

You can be my wingman any time! …um…well, actually since I’m not now nor has ever been a pilot, I had better be your wingman. But I can give one heck of a good pre-flight intel brief! :grin:


#25

Nice thread.

I play relaxed style coop flights mostly. Max 4-6 players because then you can use just teamspeak etc… no need to mess wiht srs etc… I would like to use plane radios to voicecoms but its must have to be build in. So im happy that its on ed list.

I dont like "lets shoot all what we can see " style, relaxed and nice chatter and communication is key but same time i like that someone of our group “leads” , >> its really nice to plan strike in BMS with friends .So again i hope that ED gets even beta DC system out or least mission pre planing thing.

Half of fun is plan our own strike (or cap) in map.

So short: My playstyle is MIXED :slight_smile:

oh , and i like it hard or least medium.

Bombin towel heads from 30xxxxx ft with laser bombs is nogo. Im weird, i like to be underdog or i dont have any problem to fight with mig-21 vs F-16s etc in enemy side.

Even falcon bms my favorite campaing is always korea strong :wink:


#26

The problem with that is that IRST is not a counter to link 16 or really anything in any way or form.
In the real world Radar is king over every other sensor, even for OPFOR. You care much less about your enemy knowing you are there than finding and killing them.

IRST’s in the real world are utter crap for BVR as a primary sensor. This may change in the future with processing power, but in general they always run into the problem of, if you make them sensitive enough to detect things BVR reliably, they also detect all the false returns that are out in the real world (sun glint off clouds, glint off of water, hotspots on the ground, flares, etc…). On the flipside if you desensitize them enough to mitigate that problem, then you have dropped your range so much that they are really only useful in a WVR engagement.

This goes in combination with the fact that RWR’s in flight sims are way way too good. In the real world they are warning receivers, not ELINT gathering devices (how they are used in DCS). The vast majority of the assumptions going into how they are modelled in DCS are just straight out wrong (sensitivity, what they can detect etc…).
This is before we get to how horrible BVR missiles are in DCS right now, which preclude most realistic tactical options off the bat.

In the real world in an air to air situation I would want to be at 20-30,000 feet with my radar on, looking for the badguys at all times, regardless of if I’m in a Flanker or an F-15.

Long story short, radars are undermodelled, IRST/RWR is drastically overmodelled. BVR missiles are severely undercapable.


#27

This is my feelings about ground combat games. When you have intimate knowledge of the way things really work, it kind of spoils the idea of realism. MUH IMMURZUN!!!

So when you think are operating like some high speed low drag steely eyed killer, you really aren’t. Then you have the guys who criticize players for not being high speed low drag enough, and it becomes even more comical.


#28

Yep…that’s how all my friends would describe me…fer sure…100%…

side1


#29

Yeah me too!

dreams


#30

(And if you have to ask what “/k/” is – trust me, you’re better off not knowing.)


#31

Was going to build a coop/dogfight mission in IL-2 1946 and have the Player fly real time to attack Pearl Harbor. The planes in game have the legs to make the distance without drop tanks but after I flew it a couple times testing the aircraft’s legs in 8x I realized almost no one, except me, is going to want to fly for 90 minutes there and back, 3 plus hours total, and see almost no action if I made it historical.

Wheels


#32

And thats it. You want to suceed in that particular game ? Then you need to adapt to all you wrote above and use that particular game tactics.
If you will stick to reality tactics you will fail.

Few examples from the past.

US went into Vietnam theatre with reality tactics of BVR misile warfare.
That reality tactics failed in that particular game.
They adapted and after the game US estabilished new reality tactics used afterwards.

Then the Desert Storm. US went into that with reality tactics from Vietnam and it again needed to be fine tuned for that particular game.

And so on… :slight_smile:


#33

Point of contention: BVR missile warfare in Vietnam didn’t work out due to the ROEs set. When visual identification of a target is required, well… It’s not exactly BVR anymore.


#34

ehhhh, real tactics do work in DCS it just requires a higher degree of discipline and teamwork than most DCS flyers are going to have. getting a proper 2-4 ship together can utterly dominate an area if flown with somewhat realistic tactics. Therein lies the key, a 2-4 ship flown competently.

This btw applies to both blue and red air. I’ve had good success online with a 2 ship of F-15s, and Ive had good success online with a 2-4 ship of flankers. Its all about knowing the opponents limitations and advantages and then exploiting the limitations and minimizing the advantages as much as possible.

Fun story, unlike most of the online community I actually think the R27ER is the best missile kinematically in DCS right now due to the short range nature of most engagements and the ridiculous speed that that missile has at short range. If you stay high (above 10,000 feet/2-3000 meters) you can absolutely trade shots with an amraam shooter and come out on top inside 10 miles. Oh and it has a greater stern wez than the amraam does as well.

The trick is to get yourself inside 10 miles (15 km) hopefully un targeted.

This is all before you get into the chaff rejection of the 27ER in DCS (terrible) SARH limitations (he notches you its defeated) and the issues with netcode (if he warps at any point in its TOF its probably defeated) which can make it a real pain to fight with, but I honestly prefer it over just about any other russian missile for BVR in DCS.


#35

Excellent points to both @Franze and @klarsnow


#36

I dont know, I just heard that somewhere :wink:

‘…20miles, look low, two blue bandits…’ and if they were called blue bandits that was suposed to be cleared to fire … But I said ‘we are cleared to fire?’ and he said ‘yes, you are cleared to fire!’. So we got to 10 and 8 … Man, at 8miles all four of us, two people in each airplane, saw 4 MiG-21s…


#37

I mean, sim vs reality, it is mix of both. Real tactics is the foundation, but you need then adapt to the game played in some ways.


#38

I would argue that quote has less to do with the technological capability for them to shoot at that range, and more to do with their general distrust of the system and them wanting to confirm in their heart of hearts what they are about to shoot at.


#39

Sure, and at that point in the war I think they were well aware that the NVs didnt have any BVR weapons. So maybe also that didnt force them to shoot asap.


#40

Fully agree. It is long time ago I enjoyed such company online. I am lonewolfing these days online and thats not such fun :slight_smile: