Sinking Ships/Anti-Surface-Warfare discussion (with DCS World 2.5 examples)

Nice. We had some great EM1’s aboard in my time. My boat got a new core in 2001, so it should have plenty of fuel for an MTS. Funny, as I went through the 626 in Goose Creek in 1997. Did you do prototype there or in Ballston Spa?

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1984, 1.c Midn cruise, SSBN-627, Gold Crew - went Intel instead of Nuke…less math, more fun…retired 2014.

If you would like to see SSBN 627’s reactor compartment, its sitting in desert somewhere.

Anyway…now that we’ve taken a nostalgic trip down memory lane, :wink: back to this:

I think this comes along the lines of Noob & Not Noob questions so I’m going to punt it over to that thread. Don’t really know how to do that so I’m just going to copy @near_blind’s quote over and ask some questions.

That said, my thought process was to simulate a simulated submarine that could actually shoot a torpedo or missile. The idea was to get a naval task force to honor the submarine threat, either by putting an FFG or two down a sub threat axis, or flying some ASW aircraft that would need to be escorted. (OK, the second part was @Navynuke99’s idea)

If this can be done for sub-launched ASCMs by spawning in a Kirov CGN (SS-N-19 as on OSCAR II SSGN) or US CG (Harpoon) - shoot the missiles from over the horizon (so nobody sees it) and then spawn it out just as quickly, that would also work. The trigger/script would need to have a zone around the FFG(s) preventing the spawn-in/spawn-out (and thus the missile shots) to make it seem like the “sub” cannot fire without being immediately discovered. I guess if you want to be fancy you could simulate conversion zones…not that the coastal Black Sea or even North Arabian Sea in the PG map are likely to have significant CVs.

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MTS - 635 in Charleston. Good times, great city. Pity we don’t have a bigger Naval presence there any longer. And yeah, new core on San Francisco is why they welded the Honolulu’s bow onto her after that collision instead of scrapping her.

Getting back to @Hangar200 's comment, I was kinda wondering if you could somehow fake EW emissions, or have a radar spawn out almost over the horizon, to set up an if-then condition of if such and such EW signal is detected, then x-y-z happen with ASW assets, battle group changing course, etc.

Granted, I don’t know if this is possible with the current EW modeling in game.

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Well, without getting into the stuff the I can’t get into, OII launched SS-N-19s would just “show up” when their ow targeting radar came on…for a SLAVA or KIROV, it would be more likely they would get their OTHT from a KA-27 or TU-142 (Back in the day is was a TU-95 BEAR D)

If you can take your eyes of the F-14 (I know I have trouble doing so), I invite your attention to the BEAR D the background, specifically the large “chin” radar under the nose - primary reece feature - and big @$$ surface search radar.

For DCS World the ECM on the TU-142’s radar should suffice.

I guess yo wold need some type of script that has some SLQ-32 ship detect the radar and send a message to the group…probably something as simple as a moving zone set on the TU-142 that triggers when a CG gets inside it. I shall play around with it and then push it out to the FA-18 Fleet Defenders. (The only Blue air-to-air platform I have is the Gazelle with the Mistral missiles…very cool.

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I was actually going to specifically mention the SLQ-32 in my last post, but brain farted. Stupid bourbon hangovers.

Is the SLQ-32 even modeled in game?

Thought you had the Viggen?

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True…I meant carrier capable A2A.

Now you made me think of the Viggen…happy thoughts for the rest of the day - by far the coolest aircraft of my limited collection…although I often have to call @Troll to get a translation of a switch or warning light. If Heatblur does a similar job with the F-14 I’ll be a happy camper.

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Bork! = On
Bork = Off

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…and the idea for a new mission is born! (You will probably want royalties…we’ll talk) :sunglasses:

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Last week I have been working on getting my Dynamic Campaign Engine (DCE) for DCS ready for the Tomcat. This means in large parts getting ASuW for the Backfires right. My aim is to get my ATO generator to create as realistic Backfire strikes as possible. The results were pretty cool, so I wanted to share my little test setup.

For this simple test, a carrier battle group consisting of one Nimitz carrier, a Ticonderoga cruiser and 4 OHP frigates is the target for a force of Backfires. DCE is to automatically plan the strikes and manage the fleet defense as set up for the scenario.

The CVBG is planted on the southern edge of the Black Sea. Soviet doctrine specified that one aviation missile strike division is assigned against each carrier. Therefore I define 3 regiments with 20 Tu-22M3 each, based 2500 km to the north (outside of our visible map area), for a total of 60 bombers. DCE takes aircraft availability into account, therefore such divisional strikes will rarely be flown at full strength. According to Soviet doctrine, regiments are to split up into squadrons and strike from multiple directions simultaneously. I define the CVBG as a campaign target and specify that up to 6 groups (3 regiments x 2 squadrons) can be assigned. The ATO assign a random attack direction to each group within a half circle in the direction of approach and time all flightplans for a simultaneous TOT (I ended up to add a random variation of up to 1 minute to TOT to make things look less robotic).

A mission was generated, lets see what the ATO came up with:

In the center is the carrier with a red 170 NM circle for reference purpose. This is the distance from where the Backfires can launch their Kh-22/AS-4 anti-ship missiles. Flight plans are a bit hard to see because a lot is actually happening outside the map area. There are 5 packages with a total of 43 bombers. All packages are approaching from the north at cruise speed and at an altitude of 7000 m towards their IP some 350 NM around the northern hemisphere of the carrier. Visible are one package to the left and right and two packages approaching from the top (just barely visible). The 5th package is to the west, entirely outside the visible map area. Once at the IP, the bombers are to climb to 11000 m to initiate their supersonic dash towards the carrier. At 170 NM they launch their missiles, hopefully simultaneously, turn around and speed towards their egress point at almost Mach 2. From there they cruise back home into the map wasteland 2500 km to the north.

Let’s see how this plays out with all fighter defenses disabled for the moment.

Mission started, all packages cruise to their IP to initiate their supersonic dash toward the carrier (visible map area is a bit larger in the F10 map during a mission).

Package flight plans work well, 43 bombers launch a fairly concentrated missile salvo. There are some individual stragglers though. Now free from their heavy missiles, the bombers accelerate even further as they egress away from the carrier.

Even the AEGIS cruise has no chance to defend against this volume of fire. All ships are struck multiple times and all escorts are sunk. Surprisingly the carrier remains afloat, although heavily damaged by multiple missile strikes (the dead escorts absorbed a lot of missiles).

Now let’s see how the same mission plays out with active fleet defense.

100 NM north of the carrier, along the primary threat axis, I have configured an AEW station, which the ATO covers with a Hawkeye from the carrier. For reference have added a blue circle of 320 NM showing the Hawkeye detection range against Backfires. As you can see, AWACS can detect bombers approaching directly from the north pretty early, but will not be able to see bombers moving along the flanks until they start their turn towards the carrier.

The carrier is equipped with two squadrons of Tomcats, 24 aircraft in total. In practice, around 20 of these will be available at a given time. I decide to define two 2-ship CAP stations along the threat axis to the north. A western station at 315° and an eastern station at 45°, both at 150 NM. These aircraft are armed with 4 Phoenix, 2 Sparrows and 2 Sidewinder. To ensure continuous station coverage, the ATO uses up 6 aircraft per station. So 12 of 20 aircraft are allocated.

Next I define that there shall be 4 aircraft on alert on the carrier, armed with 6 Phoenix and 2 Sidewinders. These will be launched when AWACS picks up targets. Now 16 aircraft are occupied, leaving 4 aircraft for other tasks (none in this limited scenario).

Let’s see how this goes.

Bomber groups moving into position undetected, CAPs remain on station.

As the bombers enter AWACS range, the CAPs leave station to intercept. The western CAP heads towards the NW group, the eastern CAP heads towards the two northern groups. At the carrier, the first two interceptor Tomcats have launched and also fly north (the other two alert aircraft will launch 15 minutes later).

The CAPs launch their Phoenixes well before the Backfires approach AS-4 attack range, but the western and eastern groups are completely uncovered.

The western CAP does well, killing 6 bombers and turning away the remaining 3. The eastern CAP makes a couple kills and drives away 3 more bombers, but many Phoenix miss and 6 Backfires push through towards the carrier. At the center, the two intercept Tomcats launch the Phoenix against the breakthrough.

Unfortunately the 6 Backfires to the north launch their missiles before the Phoenix from the interceptors can reach them. As the Tu-22M3 turn away, all Phoenix miss. In addition to the 12 AS-4 from the north, the eastern and western Backfire groups each launch 18 AS-4 completely unopposed. This doesn’t look very good.

At the carrier, the second pair of alert Tomcats just launched.

The Alert 15 birds immediately launch their 12 Phoenix against the incoming AS-4 missiles to the north. This allows the AEGIS cruiser to engage the other missiles without being overwhelmed. Fortunately the salvos from the east and west are not completely synchronized, allowing the Ticonderoga to engage each salvo subsequently.

Things get a little hairy at the end, with several missiles being intercepted by 20 mm Phalanx CIWS. But all ships get away unscratched. The remaining Backfires burn away at Mach 2 and are untouchable at this point.

This is the mission result. One Tomcat was damaged by a Backfire tail-gun and one crashed into the ocean while trying to maneuver behind a diving AS-4 for a Sidewinder shot. Backfire losses were comparatively light (27% attrition rate, Soviet doctrine expected 50%) with many bombers getting away. Red still has sufficient strength the launch more such strikes in subsequent campaign missions and perhaps blue is less lucky next time around.

I must say, just watching these fleet defense scenarios is pretty exciting and I cannot wait to actually participate in them in a cockpit of an F-14 :slight_smile:

P.S.
It is incredible how much space is required for fleet operations. The sceenshots show pretty clearly why no carrier would ever operate in a hostile Black Sea (regardless of the Montreux Convention). There just is not enough room, especially if the coastlines are hostile. We definitely need a big ocean map for grand naval operations. North Norway/Norwegian Sea/Barents Sea/Kola or my personal favorite Kamchatka/Aleutians (3000 km of open North Pacific).

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That’s really neat work. I’d be scared to see how the carrier group fared if it was relying an AMRAAM toting Hornets. Impressive scripting too. The space required to get a proper attack in must be a challenge for DCE. Here’s hoping we see a Pacific or GIUK map soon where bombers can really stretch their legs.

Any full out war scenario dc is not good in curent map size.

So lets hope that syria map will be first big map and after that maybe norway, Swedes , Finland , north russia area.

Having tried that in CMANO, you basically have to guess exactly right where the launch points are, and time it just right. If you get it wrong, it’s get real interesting real fast.

Having tried to do it in DCS, this holds up. If you don’t put yourself in a position where the bombers come to you, you’re never catching back up again.

Except for this. :grin:
300px-F-111B_CVA-43_approach_July1968

So interpolating what @near_blind is trying to say… “bring back the f111 because it can chase the backfires all the way home, pentrate enemy territory and then take out of action all the runways”

I’m sure that’s what he was trying to say
:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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All I’m trying to say is watching forty or so strategic bombers laid out in front of you like it’s red square, but you can’t hit any of them because they’re all faster than you is a supremely frustrating experience for a “fighter”.

Solution is to find a better fighter.

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Great thread! This is all making me think (again) how desperately we need more ships in-game. OHP’s are hard-pressed to fill in for Arleigh Burkes when it comes to the air defense role, and even older CGN’s would have more capability in that role.

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