Pages 28 and 29 are the tables indicating test mission parameters- the attitude column doesn’t show a drop at an angle more extreme than -2 deg pitch angle- not really diving conditions. That said, a few of the releases were quite high, around 15k feet. Accuracy is reflected on page 39, apparently slick bombs can be expected to achieve anywhere between 3 to 7 mils of error while the ballutes tested were at 12.
All that being said, according to the abstract, the point of the testing documented was level bombing. It’s entirely possible later tests were performed to check out how the ballutes performed in a dive. Also not to mention the possibility a combat unit to decided that creative employment of ordinance was necessary and/or fun.
Just as an addendum. I don’t know how the AdA actually does it, but I still maintain that Razbam made a mistake in forcing the Snakeyes to be CCIP and the slicks to be CCRP.
Having utubed now the mk82 air, I think the difference in drag may not be as large as I thought. I’m not considering the A10 a comparable jet in this instance, im referencing the F16. In bms, we use all three bombs for different jobs. Regular 82 is good for large targets like buildings letting us drop from higher and farther and the accuracy is less important. Snake eye is good against ground vehicles/very small targets whereby we still want to dive (because it’s easier walking pipper onto target) but release closer for improved accuracy. Lastly the 82 air for the low fast level deliveries when keeping low is all important.
For me and some others at least, the snake eye behaviour isn’t what’s expected. Could be a Mirage peculiarity perhaps.
If this video is anything to go by, then BMS isn’t really doing snakeyes correctly, and you’ve got the intended delivery of the weapons reversed. A slick bomb,is relatively stable once released and is just riding gravity and wind. With a modern fire control computer you should have no problems hitting things the size of a house, or getting close enough to ruin the day of light armored vehicles using slicks. I’ve done this in the mirage, and it’s even easier in the F-16.
Snakeyes, by virtue of their retardation and the shock of their fins opening are inherently inaccurate. One fin opening slightly before the other can effect the trajectory, and any sort of wind over the target is going greatly effect trajectory. In addition to that, by virtue of slowing the bomb down you are making it less stable, further reducing accuracy. Snakeyes should be thought of as area, not point weapons, and I think DCS does a great job of demonstrating this. There is a reason you rarely if ever see videos of aircraft dropping single or pairs of snake eyes. You ripple six, or eight, or twelve, etc. You’re basically creating an area of effect where statistically, any target inside will either be destroyed or attrited.
I don’t know the date of the bombs inception but it appears to predate later, more sophisticated flight computers capable of storing target locations and displaying them on huds. Getting in a slight pop to see the target and diving on it from there seems like it would have been more common back then. Even if it’s delivery method evolved, it seems like it should still accommodate some form of dive attack as it does in BMS.
Edit: Also, I don’t even have a horse in this race since I barely play this sim anymore. That ■■■■■■■ Eso just got me tangled up in this and now he seems to have left the discussion . As long as you are happy with how it works.
All this talk of snake eyes is reminding me of my father, whom after he returned from a stint with the Da Nang Gunfighters in '69 always said that his two of his favorite things in life were snake and nape.
Anyway, I did some various module testing in VR last night in 1.5.4 with regard to these aforementioned updates…
Oculus Rift. RadioCommunications and triggered messages menu font increased
Oculus Rift. Kneeboard and terrain clipping issues fixed
Oculus Rift. Oculus Zoom action added to “UI layer” input options
Oculus Rift. VR settings can now be applied without restarting GUI
Communications menu and kneeboard working and improved. Not sure what Oculus Zoom action added to “UI layer” input options refers to. But I did implement these commands on my HOTAS and that yeilded quite an improvement in cockpit navigation for me.
FYI, I used @SkateZilla’s DCS Updater GUI Utility so that I would be able to unload my JSGME add-ons and then load them again after the update without launching DCS Worked perfectly. Thanks.
With the exception of LABS which is entirely different horse, I’m pretty sure the F-100 only has a manual mil depression gun sight and the magic that is table bombing. Even then that dive is extremely shallow, and if you check the horizon, it is not level either, creating a false sense of severity. I’d be shocked if that aircraft were more then 10 degrees nose low. That’s as close to level bombing as you can get with anything of the era that was not a strategic bomber or A-6.
Not sure I would call that a dive. If that is the horizon under the plane, it slopes up to the left at pretty close to the same rate as the center-line of the plane.
However, after reading a few posts on the DCS forums, I decided to try dive bombing in the M2000C and recording the results. Here is both CCRP and CCIP in the basic same profile.
17:30 - TAS selected, dropped at 35+ degrees, 2400ft, 530 kts;
It behaved as I expected it to, really. I had to lean forward on the CCIP dive bombing to ‘see over the nose’ and this made it feel like I was closer to the ground. I am not sure that is realistic and I figure I would be pretty strapped in to that ejection seat but it was do-able.
You can usually adjust your seat pretty easily irl, and for pilots they talk a lot about adjusting your seat for different things, to be able to easier see different things on the hud
@Fridge try to give it a go aswell with mk20 which are dumb bombs aswell and see how easy they are for ccip vs mk82 low drag on ccrp
and with those records on the video u can see how similar is the LDGB mk82 and Snakeyes Mk82 … release Q is allmost the same even on CCIP and CCRP that was the point i was trying to make…
I’ve only read bits and pieces of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been covered, but why on earth would anybody want to use retarded bombs for a CCIP run? This doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever. The whole point of bomb retardation is to go in as low as possible in CCRP and be long gone when the ordinance detonates, no? In CCIP, there is little benefit from retardation because you have the height to fly a safe escape profile and you don’t ever need to get that close to the target.
Because that is the mode that was assigned to the Mk82 Snake Eyes in the M2000C … by the real life design.
I would argue that is more a factor of how close I am to the targets/ground as opposed to anything else. In the pattern in the video I am between 1000ft and 2000ft from the target. In the CCIP release, I am dropping much farther ‘behind’ the aircraft than the CCRP release. I think that makes sense from that point of view.
Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with ccip as a delivery mode. Lol.
It’s just makes no sense that it be used for snake eyes. I don’t know if it’s ravens l razbam’s goof, the AdA’s goof, or Dassault’s goof, but its illogical.
@near_blind its all good … but there is a sense behind it and as far as i heard razbam is working on fixing it… my guess is when ever the TAS is corrected so the program of the CCIP will be fixed
sure … what im trying to say when u approach a target in the same dive angle , altitude and speed using CCIP (Mk82 Snakeyes that got highdrag) or CCRP (Mk82 LDGB = low drag) the release Q for CCRP should be sooner so it mean u will pull up sooner when comparing to CCIP with the Mk82 SE as the IP (Impact point) is programmed for low CCIP Bombing. but its actually programed the same for both methods and bombs which i find as weird, but again i might be totally wrong.
Short of it is they don’t. I tried repeated passes in the Mirage with a 30 degree dive at 4NM starting at 12000 AGL. Passes were not identical because the Mirage’s CCRP designation system is the stupidest thing known to man (J’accuse, Dassault).
Snakeye release happened at ~1800 feet agl. Slick release happened at ~4500 feet agl, and to do that I had to ignore a release cue at 8000 feet.
and now he seems to have left the discussion . As long as you are happy with how it works.
