[admin edit: moved these posts to their own thread - good discussion here!]
imapct point in the mirage 2000 using snakeyes is terribly wrong … pipper wont come up unless u are in a 50 degrees dive going 550 knots … … im a ccip guy … but thats some wrong ccip over there
I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing, but I’ll try to explain how I learned to understand bombing in the M-2000C to help you.
I’m a CCIP guy too, but unfortunately there’s no way of choosing in the M-2000C: if you want to drop Mk-82 or guided bombs, you have to do CCRP, and for Mk-82SE and cluster munitions, you have to do CCIP.
Now, because those bombs are retarded, in a normal CCIP dive, the pipper won’t show up until you’re 1 second away from impacting the ground.
What I do instead to get the Snake eyes on target, is to fly low and fast. Don’t dive, just fly at a few hundred feet and fly 400+ knots, you’ll see the pipper. Above flat terrain, you can adjust speed and altitude to get the pipper in a comfortable place in your HUD. Memorize the speed and altitude of your preference, overfly your target at that speed and altitude (without diving), and drop the bombs. Because of your high speed and low altitude, the enemy will never see you coming (Vietnam tactics: one pass haul ass), and because the bombs are retarded, you don’t risk blowing yourself up, even if you’re flying at only 200 feet AGL.
Hope that helps. I never try CCIP dives in the M-2000C anymore unless absolutely necessary.
EDIT: btw I think I’m off topic… There’s nothing on CCIP pipper in the changelog right? It looks like it’s only about using the INS for bombing
I have the same experience as @Freak and for a while that confused me (my views not that they coincided with @Freaks) - my views on CCIP and CCRP lead me to consider one for ‘active maneuvering in to the target bombing’ and one for more level bombing. In the Mirage I think that role/characterization is reversed. Well, more correctly, neither is meant for ‘active maneuvering in to the target’ but CCIP is meant AFAIK for fast, low level bombing (due to the nature of it being paired with the Mk-82 Snake Eyes) and the other for more ‘traditional’ bombing.
It is the pairing that is confusing everyone but I think I understand it.
There is no way to do a fast run in on the target with CCRP. If you need to spot the target from a stand off range first, designate with CCRP and then do a low level run it your whole bombing solution is going to be a mess. CCIP makes more sense for a fast run in where you have to acquire the target visually in the last few seconds before you overrun it.
CCRP, in this case, makes more sense for a run in on a more regular bombing profile with the regular Mk-82.
All of this is counter to the way we learnt CCIP/CCRP in the A-10C. The French have turned it around.
EDIT: As @near_blind has reminded me, if you are bombing with Snake Eyes and expect to release anywhere farther than a second away, those Snake Eyes are going to miss (due to their expected flight profile).
So you’re saying the loft Snake Eye delivery is probably off the table…?
@Freak & @Fridge
i do the low level bombing aswell now as i cant do any ccip bomb diving… but my point was that the caculations of the IP is totaly wrong cause its equivalent to low ccip bombing and proper high angel ccip bombing… the calculations should be the same thats why im sure its bugged ! … another thing i found was that actually while using the mk 20 Cluster bombs you can realease from 4000-5000 feet depends on your speed from a 20-30 degrees approach … and mk20 vs. mk82 are same dumb bombs…
@BeachAV8R lol … i would say “what is the point having CCIP but no POP UP Attacks !!!”
So you’re saying the IP should be at the same spot in the HUD for high angle CCIP bombing as during the high speed low altitude delivery?
I think that is not correct, and the sim simulates it properly. Any falling trajectory is a parabola, and because snakeeyes have high drag they slow down even faster: the longer the flight time, the more their trajectory will be straight down.
For high speed low-level deliveries, the flight time of the snakeeyes is so short that the impact point is still visible in the HUD.
Even if you dive at a steep angle and high speed, due to the huge distance that the snakeeyes have to traveo to reach the IP, they still fall pretty much straight down.
As for Mk.20, they are cluster bombs: the small bomblets drop slowly like retarded bombs, even though the initial trajectory of the entire bomb is much like the low-drag Mk.82.
Was that your problem?
With Snake Eyes, any altitude is going to cause the bombs to fall well behind the aircraft. Add a high angle and high speed and the are basically going to hit the spot right under your aircraft when you pickle, and not out in front like you would hope.
Well, that is unless you are going to precede your bombs into the target or if maybe your bomb angle is between 80 and 90 degrees.
In my head I picture it like this: At low level, if I drop a rock and a shirt out of the jet, if I am low enough, both will hit near where I plan - hopefully somewhere in front of the jet that I can see. The shirt is going to grab a lot of air and slow down it’s forward flight fast where-as the rock is going to take a nice ballistic path to the ground. If I am low enough, the shirt doesn’t get a lot of time to slow down before it hits the ground, keeping it close, but always behind, where the rock lands.
As I raise my height the shirt is going to grab more air, meaning it will stop it’s forward flight and drop into a vertical fall fast. The rock is not going to care as much and will keep it’s ballistic path. The shirt will fall much farther behind where the rock ends up. The higher up I go, the father behind it will drop. If I increase my bombing angle, this will change equation somewhat but the shirt will always fall way behind the rock.
I don’t own the Mirage for DCS but after watching Eso stream it over steam it seems pretty clear it doesn’t work properly. The snakeyes are behaving like MK82 airs in as much as you need to be in low level flight at at least 500 knots to see the pipper, despite the bomb being designed for popup/dive attacks (also explaining why the MK82 air exists for said low level deliveries). Even diving at very high speeds (550-650) at dive angles between 20-60 we could never get the pipper to show up until reaching altitudes measuring in the hundreds of feet.
You can also look up footage of these drops and see that they continue to fall forwards for a long time, and not almost beneath the plane (MK82airs would be closest to that). They are almost like glide bombs.
@Fridge & @Freak
i see your point but try testing what i was testing today … just for the research of it …
go in mirage do a 30 degrees dive on target using snakeyes … speed at 400 knots + and see when your IP is up… now do the same using the A-10C using Mk82 air which got even more drag and see when your IP is up on the HUD.
try starting the approach from 8000 feet.
my results were that the program for high altitude approach with mk82 air on the a10 c were actually better then the one on the mirage which means there is a BUG in the mirage.
there is no argue that the mk82 snakeyes are supposed to be used for low CCIP bombing but still they are much more versatile for high and low angle approach.
huh? The Mk-82 “Snak eeye” exists to be delivered by aircraft flying at low altitude, at relatively level flight and high speeds. It is retarded explicitly so that the dropping aircraft doesn’t need to perform a pop up maneuver for fuse/ fragmentation deconfliction.
The Mk-82 ballute or “air” used by the A-10C in DCS is essentially a newer take on the same concept. Combat experience showed that it was possible for one or more fins of the snakeye to jam, and fail to open. In that case what was an already inaccurate weapon became wildly unstable, and if you’re dropping a metric ■■■■ ton of them (as one does with this type of weapon), bad things can happen. The ballute offered a simpler and safer means to slow the bomb down.
I’ll check this when I get home, but last I tried it I was easily getting the pipper when flying ~500 knots and low altitude. Make sure your radar altimeter is armed, and your radar is in TAS, otherwise the program might be using barometric altitude to calculate the depression angle, and at higher elevations that will cause problems.
Also as everyone else has mentioned the Snakeye isn’t really suited for more than a second or two time of flight, it is not the sort of weapon you want to be using for a pop up. The slick Mk82s with a rapid target designation would be better suited for that.
thats what i have done @near_blind you should check as u get home and you will see what im on about … i guess its another pending fix for the mirage …
I’ll admit it’s low on the HUD and jittery, and you might have to raise your head a little, but it’s not beyond the realm of usable.
Here is a short video I just recorded showing the level, low altitude Snake Eyes bomb employment. Largest problem I find is the jittering around of the pipper.
yes its usable … but definitly not correct or how it should be especially when u are 615 feet from the ground …
but still you gonna have try them out mk82 air on the A10 C which have higher drag then the snakeyes and see how u can work around with that…
another test i was doing the other night is comparing mk82 CCRP Vs. mk82 SE CCIP in 30 degrees dive … i got same solution, which means i was approaching from same ALT while doing CCRP Realse Q came up the same time i had the pipper on the Mk82 SE… you can try out yourself and see how it even more justifies the facts there is something wrong with bombing using Mk82 SE.
Still need to wait for some updates from Razbam till its fixed.
Ty for the pictures @near_blind and the video @Fridge i will try putting one video demonstrating the CCRP and CCIP.
What we are trying to say is that in the Mirage 2000C the CCIP/Snake Eyes combination is not intended to be used in this manner. 30 degree dive is for CCRP in the M2000C. This is different than in the A-10C. That is my opinion.
I do not what to turn this thread into an argument thread as that is getting off topic. If you want to start another I will do my best to contribute if I think that I can.
lol i dont see this as an argument ohh no … its a discussion and ya i did notice its a bit offtopic … will open a topic about it and show in a video how diffrent is all the option on the mirage and how i see it being pretty weird in my POV and many other pilots POV.
Fridge’s video shows what we believe is the problem with the snake eye. The drag is greater on the Air version of the bomb, and with that flight profile the pipper would be below the hud when trying to deliver it, which means something seems to be off. (Comparable jets drop the 82air even if the Mirage doesn’t).
From what I’ve seen in BMS and other reading, it makes sense that the snake eye should be deliverable from higher, as well as in a dive. Snake eye could be delievered from a lower point in the dive, closer to the target increasing accuracy and allowing the plane to escape fragging itself. I think it was chiefly designed to improve these kinds of dive attacks. It’s not as good for low fast level passes because it falls farther forward compared to Mk82 air, making the release point farther away from target.
I’m willing to eat crow if an actual pilot chimes into the contrary, but my distinct impression is that bomb retardation devices such as the snakeye and the ballute, are to facilitate extreme low altitude, level or very shallow bomb deliveries. The entire point of them is that you do not have to make an exaggerated pop attack to allow for deflection with your bomb fragments. The resulting inaccuracy generated by the drag of the retardation fin is negated by the relatively short time of flight.
The A-10 is different almost to the point of irrelevance due to the fact it goes really flipping slow which does a number of things to limit what you can do with CCIP or RP.
Do not take anything from another jet as particular to how the delivery for a weapon system works, the ballistics are the same for a snake eye dropped from one jet to another, but something simple like the hud angles and placement of the hud in the cockpit can make the sight line different.
Retarded bombs are not designed to be used in a manual delivery, automatic releases are how you use them irl, and if you are using a retarded bomb, you should be low altitude and relatively high speed otherwise you probly won’t even get a release cue.
This is without even talking about a jets peculiarities for how it determines height above target and slant range (ralt vs laser vs radar ranging vs computed due to ins) which also plays into innacuracies.
The a-10 is a very unique example because it operates so slowly dropping these bombs.
Also examine why you are dropping snake eyes. What is driving you to use them. If you are not flying low level and want to do manual bombing drop them slick, that’s what the selector option is for.
They are not designed to be used in a pop pattern, if you are dropping retarded snake eyes I would not expect to be flying a pop or the symbology to support that unless ridiculously steep dive angles are used.
Or an auto release is used.
Essentially think that unless you are going very fast and very low the bombs are going to essentially hit directly under your jet, so unless you are looking 45+ degrees down at pickle I would have no expectation to see a ccip pipper in the hud at anything other than low level.
A-10 again is the exception because it is so slow that it can do steeper dive angles