Some of you may have noticed that this has been a bit of a thing for me. I am trying to slim down an article I am writing on the subject. We’ll see where that goes. Here’s the video version:
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Definitely going to watch this. I’m interested in getting back into flying but I don’t have the desk space to have the controls set up all the time so I’ve been resisting.
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Great video,
I have a few questions though:
- How do you “let go” of the stick? Using a button?
- Isn’t it horribly tiring to hold the stick in front of you to move it or keep it centered?
- You mentioned the missing center, but what about the limits of the sticks, throttle or collective?
- Some of the hand controllers tend to “jitter” a bit, especially when your head is facing away from them (has to do with the inside out tracking). Has that been a problem for you?
Great video!!! Welll put together and very thought provoking.
A couple of questions / observations:
What about rudders? The helo work showed a couple of rudder turns.
The point about no natural center is probably a key issue.
Agree that civilian flight sims don’t need an entire HOTAS and in fact it is fairly unrealistic…although the point is made while we are looking at a collective with a ton of buttons on it. 
My thoughts on the issue: I offer that one doesn’t look at the primary flight controls when one uses them. Hands “instinctively find” the yoke or stick, and throttles. There are likely a couple of other controls like flaps handle, spoiler handle, landing gear handle, etc. that are reached for without really looking and whose operation one would see in VR. So in those cases, a physical controller provides a realistic experience–something physically “fixed” with a natural center that can be used in VR as one would in the real thing. The challenge then becomes combining a few physical controllers with some type of VR controllers. The X-56 has a mouse built in that might work, otherwise you are reaching for a mouse or trackball and your hand(s) isn’t going to the "right place in the space of a 3D virtual cockpit. The VR controllers shown seem to be much more user friendly but require the use of both hands.
The decision then boils down to a couple of “real” controllers and a track ball, or complete VR controllers.
I’m leaning towards the former.
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- How do you “let go” of the stick? Using a button?
You let go of the stick with a second press of the trigger. The collective or throttle must be constantly grabbed with the left (or right depending on throttle side) trigger. Letting go lets go.
- Isn’t it horribly tiring to hold the stick in front of you to move it or keep it centered?
There are two VR input options in X-Plane: Realistic and Ergonomic. In the video, the only time I use “realistic” is with the Bell 412. The other three are flown “ergonomic”ally. With “ergonomic” you grab the stick and move your hand wherever it is comfortable. All translational movements are ignored. When you want to make an input you rotate your hand just as you would a joystick. You will notice in the 407 and the jet that the controller is often not near the stick. That’s “ergonomic”. “Realistic” means that your movements are exactly the same in the virtual air in front of you as they would be in the machine. For various reasons (usually oversight) not all models allow “ergonomic”. In the Bell it doesn’t matter because its a stick. I can grab it below the grip and rest my arm on my lap much like with “ergonomic”. Clear as mud?
- You mentioned the missing center, but
what about the limits of the sticks, throttle or collective?
Funny but the limits are never an issue. You just know. Even center becomes knowable with practice. The controller has a shape and structure that you learn when resting on your thigh. You begin to sense where center is by sensing its rotational position. In “realistic” it is more a sense of the space above your lap.
- Some of the hand controllers tend to “jitter” a bit, especially when your head is facing away from them (has to do with the inside out tracking). Has that been a problem for you?
There is zero jitter flying this way. And with Oculus (currently) the sensors are remote so head position will not matter. I don’t know for certain but I think the VR models with sensors in the head-unit sometimes have little lapses. But it sounds like your head really needs to be looking at an extreme position for this to be an issue. I never “check-six” in X-Plane 
There are two reasons for the appearance of jitter in the video I think. 1) the green “you’ve grabbed something!” color-fill is a little jittery. It is just there to let you know that hand movement matters, not really an indication of what your hand is doing. It seems like the green appears smother with sticks than it does with yokes. But again it is not really representative of the actual control. 2) In the 757 portion, my GPU is being pushed by the weather and my frames reflect that. It does look jittery, I agree. But that’s not at all how it felt. The weather was quite windy and turbulent. Also, I am not as smooth as I once was. I didn’t wish to clutter the video but I did consider stating that any sloppiness in flying is mine, not the input method.
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That video is great. Thanks for sharing. Definitely going to have e to try it out.
Is that new kingair350 vr compatible?
What about rudders? The helo work showed a couple of rudder turns.
Pedals are still required. The sim VTOL VR allows for hand twist to actuate yaw and it does this perfectly. But that is not possible in X-Plane. In VTOL I find that I mix yaw with roll so I still use pedals in the sim.
Agree that civilian flight sims don’t need an entire HOTAS and in fact it is fairly unrealistic…although the point is made while we are looking at a collective with a ton of buttons on it.
True. But nothing is needed there except the searchlight. Some collectives have a forcetrim or brake. This can be mapped to one of the several available buttons on the left controller. RPM blip is easily lasered. Even the searchlight, if you want it badly enough, can be mapped to the left hat. (But then you loose “teleport”).
My thoughts on the issue: I offer that one doesn’t look at the primary flight controls when one uses them. Hands “instinctively find” the yoke or stick, and throttles. There are likely a couple of other controls like flaps handle, spoiler handle, landing gear handle, etc. that are reached for without really looking and whose operation one would see in VR. So in those cases, a physical controller provides a realistic experience–something physically “fixed” with a natural center that can be used in VR as one would in the real thing. The challenge then becomes combining a few physical controllers with some type of VR controllers. The X-56 has a mouse built in that might work, otherwise you are reaching for a mouse or trackball and your hand(s) isn’t going to the "right place in the space of a 3D virtual cockpit. The VR controllers shown seem to be much more user friendly but require the use of both hands.
All valid. But you don’t need to look at the controls when flying this way. In this respect it is no different than a joystick. I will beg to differ regarding secondary controls. I never move anything except trim and tiller without looking at it. Never. Regarding some sort of combo, I think that would be where this will go eventually. The HOTAS will only be a button delivery system and a sprung center, not an input axis. But I would only use such a system in DCS. For X-Plane and non-HOTAS combat (ie, props), I think I would still prefer VR controller only.
The decision then boils down to a couple of “real” controllers and a track ball, or complete VR controllers.
I’m leaning towards the former.
Keep in mind that this decision is not easy for everyone. VR is expensive and so are the better HOTAS setups. I see this as a way to save the money and pay only for VR, VR controllers and pedals. Still expensive, yes, but better. And I truly believe that this is not a compromise to save $, but a better (and currently overlooked) input method. A year ago ago, however, I would have made the same choice you’ve made and have given “future-Eric” the exact same response.
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I don’t know for certain. But almost everything is. Basically, if the thing can be flown with a mouse, it can be flown with VR controllers. The only machine I have hit a snag with is the excellent and free(!?) Bell 429 by timber61. I love it so much and spent hours trying to make it compatible. No luck. I then got in touch with him. He replied that he doesn’t own VR and has zero interest in making his helicopter compatible. To which I say, “fair enough and godspeed!” Its not for everyone.
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I use my pedals in vtol vr and that system for me is just perfect. The combination of moving my hands to press realistic buttons above and below me with my fingers and the fantastic control you have with the vr controllers and plus the tactile feeling of my real rudder pedals just makes everything so immersive that going straight back to dcs after makes everything feel so clunky.
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Nice video Mr S, very well done.
For X-Plane I am a VR controls convert, just because there is so much more reaching around the cabin (especially the tubeliners) that it just makes sense.
I am wondering what they could do in the future for non-GA and combat in the DCS sphere in VR controls? I think I read that the MAC standalone game would be getting VR hand controls (for flying axises, not just DCS buttons pressing), as that seems like a good way for non-HOTAS people to get into a complex combat flight sim. An XBox controller lacks the ‘throw’ and a mouse is hard work - a VR control set-up modeled on the real thing might be great for those not wanting to spend $300 extra for something they might not like.
At the moment we are spending a lot of money to have complex sticks and throttle units. I wonder what the VR button set-up would be for something like this (just as an exaggeration of what we use):
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a ‘button cluster box’ ship one day with a VR tracking tech. In that specialist controllers for VR that have the common combat flight button groupings but that you still wave around in 3D space. It’s not like they’d need expensive pots and cambers in them, as they would purely act as things to hold and press in VR. We’d be using future ‘VR HOTAS’ but not actually having them rooted to the floor physically and still being able to use them as pointers etc. It’s either that or we start using different conventions for pretending a switch or button under the thumb/fingers is there, perhaps a couple of touch pads?
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All great ideas and thanks!
In the meantime we have IL2. It is a stunning combat sim in VR. But early on, before Oculus came on the scene, 777 decided that the pits would not be clickable. Maybe that decision made sense at the time. If that were to change, the sim could be the first realistic combat sim that can be managed entirely with existing VR controls (plus rudder). I see it as so obvious and so inevitable that there is no way it won’t happen in the future. I am certain it will, only, as I said elsewhere on the forum, “Jason just doesn’t know yet.”
This is a great thread…thought provoking.
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Some necromancy here. Today I took a lesson in a Schweitzer 300CBi after having flown many dozens of hours in the latest Dreamfoil X-Plane version (released last year). This was my 3rd time in a helicopter in 30 years. After some prelim airwork and hovering with me manning one control at a time, I was soon hovering with all controls with relative ease*. I have always felt that helicopters simulate more accurately than fixed wing. I gladly admit that my experience is about as low is it can be and still be barely north of nothing. But whatever modicum of value it holds has only reinforced that opinion. The X-Plane time, all conducted with VR cyclic and collective, plus physical pedals, was 90+% accurate. My flying may not have been pretty but I was always comfortable and always felt “at home”. Hovering never required intense concentration, just focus maybe on par with flying an ILS. I did once get the throttle twist confused (it is opposite to a motorcycle) and got briefly stuck in a cycle of back and forth between high and low rpm. I got the red “low” light but not so deep that he had to take over. The instructor let me fly several patterns from touchdown to takeoff and do pedal 360’s in the wind over a fixed spot. Then he demonstrated some light “funnel”-like maneuvers with the nose fixed on the spot, followed by the tail. His demo was surprisingly aggressive and, as far as fun goes, was comparable to acro!
Several of you are real helicopter pilots so please feel free to correct any b.s. My biggest surprise–honestly my only real surprise–was how the collective and throttle will drift on their own. I guess I knew this from watching videos but I never fully appreciated how taking one’s hands off either control, unless done with a great deal of friction dialed in, can be a very risky proposition.
Good times! Long live X-Plane!
*The 269/300 helicopters have had a long reputation of being stable and responsive. An R-22 would have been way more challenging.
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thats great! I really feel your excitement.
I fully agree with your thoughts, imo XP is as close to the real helo as one can get with the home PC based simulation (I mean the helo modules with updated FMs).
Didnt try yet AeroflyFS2 with that new R22 and H135, but XP is still really good and there are few more helos available for the XP. So you can try R22, 44, 66, 300CBi, etc.
I have no experience with R22, but R44 provides great luxury of governor so one less thing to worry about. R44 is also very stable and responsive for its category. Maybe just the anti-torque pedals should be little better.
never thought about it this way… I mean I am trying to not think about it like it is any close to something like that
I can confirm that I feel the same when I am on board with our chief pilot
never let them loose! on bigger machines are of course autopilots and stuff
Are you going to complete a license training?
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Thanks for the advice @Nevo. I may be seeking guidance here or offline if that’s ok. This is a childhood bucket list item. Keeping the excitement under control is a challenge. The wife unit is tired of me already. 
The Schweitzer I flew yesterday was very expensive, even by helo standards. So tomorrow I am trying a different school with an R22. It’s $105 cheaper and the flying qualities more closely match the type of machine I’ll eventually build.
Yep. I plan to get the helicopter PPL add-on and then decide what I want to build. Right now I am leaning towards a little kit called the Mosquito XE-285.
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This guy here - never been in a helicopter. Not even on a sightseeing trip or anything… 
But I’ve been flying them virtually since the old Gunship days of the Commodore 64.
That is really cool to know. The twist throttle would definitely be a thing that would be new to most simmers since (largely) not many of our controllers simulate that. Having never driven a motorcycle - maybe there would be less brain confusion over the throttle rolling direction for someone like me. Or not. At least I pull for rotor pitch in my sims
I’m so jealous - keep us informed of your progress and get some GoPro footage if the instructor will allow it. I think this year I’m going to try to pick up my seaplane rating - the helo one will have to wait until you have your CFI-rotor and can teach me.
Oh wow that thing is badass looking. That narrow profile looks like a Cobra in some ways. Gonna need some stub wings for some rocket pods!
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Back in the day when I was using a HOTAS in X-Plane I either had one throttle lever be collective and the other throttle. Or, I used one throttle as collective and a thumb rotary as throttle. Both techniques work surprisingly well. With virtual controls, the VSKYLABS mini-500 actually allows for twist as you move the collective. It’s not perfect because the throttle adjust to an intermediate setting every time you re-grip the collective. The Dreamfoil 300CBi should allow for this but currently doesn’t. So for that, I have the left trigger set to “increase throttle” and the right trigger for “decrease throttle”. That works fine too. The twist part isn’t so important as getting the principal down.
To me it looks (and sounds) like an RC heli. The motor is a snow mobile engine!
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That sounds like a great plan to build your own little helo. Transportation from backyard to work (to airport in general) will be really easy affair then
There is really a difference and not just in the cost of flight hour as you know oc.
From construction point of view Hughes ( Schweitzer is hard to type 
) has tri-bladed rotor in contrast to two-bladed Robinsons. Robinsons are known to suffer to ‘mast bumping’. I think at this point in time it is well documented behaviour and if you stay in the safe flight envelope (no pushovers = no negative Gs, avoid severe turbulence) there is nothing strange going to happen.
I just wanted to mention it, but I think you are well aware.
I finished my CPL in R44 and it was all safe as far as I know.
Second interesting construction difference is that Hughes has skids with suspension. They are there oc to soften any hard landings. Second good usage of this kit could be in case it is allowed, and you find such skilled FI, to train you full down autorotations.
I dont know how it is with Robinsons there, but maybe they can be used for such kind of training also. In that case they will be even in this feat.
But any advanced training will be on order of the day only after the PPL training I guess. So while you will be building your helo you could increase your flying skills in the meantime any experience is good experience.
Atm I am current on BELL206 and AS355.
From my point of view it is great experience to fly such different machines. One notable difference, specific to helos, is that BELL has a counter-clockwise turning rotor and AS has clockwise turning rotor (when viewed from above). Its like DCS UH1 and Mi8
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An interesting fact about the R22. The instructor in the 300 was actually new to the type. Like most civilian pilots, much of his time was in R22s and R44s. After our flight I felt pretty good as you probably were able to pick up from the post. So, as delicately as I could (having fielded this question many times as a CFI myself, I asked for a rough guess as to how long to solo. He replied that I should have no problem doing so in the MINIMUM of 20 hours! That was a bit of a shock. Again delicately, I suggested that there is no solo minimum but of course his judgement will always prevail. It turns out he was partially right IF we were talking the R22 and nothing else. In all of the US FAR/AIM, there is only one flying machine so restricted: the Robinson R22. For the reasons @NEVO mentioned above.
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