By the G pulling balls of Olds, why no F-4 in DCS?

I understand why and am very thankful for most of the aircraft currently offered and those under development, even the L-39, but to not to have Phantom even in the pipeline is ludicrous, IMO. There must be mountains of published performance data, not to mention AARs to draw on. Heck, I can get in touch with a Mig killing crew, and a crew whom were downed by a Mig-21. Please, while we are still able to hold on to our joysticks :smile: Throw a Mig-17 in there for good measure. I mean it can’t be that hard after building a stellar 15.

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Well, I can totally understand your view.
I am also a huge fan of the Phantom, it is one of my most favourite planes of all times.

Sadly there are a few obstacles that make the Phantom difficult:

  • multi crew (you would need a good AI as either pilot or WSO/RIO). The only third party to try such a thing until now is Leatherneck, and we have no clue whether it will work in the F-14 or not)
  • license. It is a very iconic plane, I expect license costs to be high. IIRC VEAO wanted to do a Phantom and that was one of their problems.
  • availability/legality of technical data. I heard that astonishingly there are still lots of things about the Phantom today that are still classified. Much more than that of other planes of that era. That might have to do with the fact that several countries are still using the Phantom today. Perhaps someone doesn’t want Iranian F-4 pilots to train with DCS or something along those lines (sounds crazy, but the person responsible might not know).

But there may be a liiiittle bit of hope. A while back someone asked Cobra from Leatherneck about an F-4. He said it would be impossible. But in a later post in a forum he said something along the lines of “previously impossible things might be an option now”. Many people interpreted that an F-4 by Leatherneck might indeed be a possibility in the future.
But that would - if it is the case at all - happen after the Viggen, Corsair, and Tomcat, so probably not before 2018.

As for the MiG-17: No thanks. As an AI plane would be cool, but I wouldn’t fly it myself I think. I would fly a MiG 23 or 25 though. :smile:

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A Phantom would be nice, but the existing production queues are all full I guess.

We also seem to be at a stage where the new 3rd Parties are building trainers as I imagine (a) it’s a good place to start from a complexity point of view and (b) there are probably non-consumer customers happy to put valuable funds into those.

I’ve not tracked them all closely (corrections welcome!), but the impression I get is that this is the current DCS Module ATO looks something like this:

Eagle Dynamics - DCS World 2, Straits of Hormuz, plus the F/A 18C keeping things very busy, i.e. future carrier ops.

Belsimtek - F-5E upcoming, plus future AH-1 and maybe Mi-24 for when multi-crew is bedded in more.

AvioDev - C101 Trainer variants keeping them busy, plus perhaps a Mirage F1.

VEAO - Hawk Trainer, and then the Euro Typhoon plus the Warbirds, Spitfire Mk XIV etc.

Leatherneck - F-14A & B plus ongoing MiG-21Bis keeps the team very busy.

RAZBAM - Mirage 2000, plus the upcoming AV8B/Harrier and things like the T2 Buckeye

Polychop - Gazelle as first module, plus JU-87D-5 as a Warbird.

So really it would be another 3rd party to bring in a F-4 in now. Other than that, maybe Belsimtek would be the best bet, as they did a good job on the MiG-15bis / F-86 combo and for a dual seater it would need some experience as a partner to get that done.

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^^^all the reasons that Aginor and Frog have pointed out. Also, I would imagine any developer would want to wait until DCS finishes the new air to ground radar model, and probably a revised ECM model as well. Then, there are so many versions of the Phantom flown by so many different nations over so many different periods of time and conflicts, that it would be easy for even the largest third-party developer to very quickly get in over their head in terms of which version to model, timeframe, weapons loadout, etc. I also think we’ll see a Phantom somewhere down the line, but I’m not counting on it for at least a couple of years.

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A few corrections/additions to @fearlessfrog 's list :
(from the top of my head)

Leatherneck: Viggen before Tomcat. Planned for this year. So is the F4U Corsair.

Razbam: T-2 was cancelled. They do Mirage2000C, then Harrier, then plan to do A-7 and/or F-15E

Polychop: Gazelle is first, then Bo-105 and Ju-87 and perhaps a Ho-229

VEAO: loads of stuff like Vampire, Meteor, P-40 and more, and we don’t have any clue how far any of their planes are, except the P-40 and the Hawk.

ED: Some Spitfire and Me-262, also a P-47.

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Gah - Viggen, yes! Thanks, the benefit of a bad memory is that I get to be newly excited by the new aircraft each time I see a list. :wink:

That’s a darn shame about the T-2 being cancelled. Would have made for a great carrier training “career” to fly that. Wish we could convince VEAO to do a T-45…but I know there are significant differences from the Hawk.

Having a MiG-21 in game without an F-4 does seem wrong though…LOL…

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Yeah. The thing about the T-2 is, that it is really only a trainer, and not even an advanced one.
I would have bought it and it is a shame that they cancelled it although it was very far developed already.
I still understand it, because without being able to land on a carrier it was a huge risk. Also people kept saying they had enough trainers already. I can understand that as well.

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I’ll happily take an F-8 Crusader once the new carrier ops are out the door…

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…but after the A-6 Intruder though, right? :smile:

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I’m hoping folks are singing a different song once we get the new carriers and updated naval flight ops. I for one am looking forward to watching everybody splatter themselves all over the fantail in new and interesting ways.

Ooh, good point. Though you can do a 'Sader with a fairly simple radar and weapons modeling. Don’t know about the variable incidence wing though. An Intruder (which I really, REALLY, REALLY want as well) is going to absolutely need the air to ground radar(s) and multicrew functionality.

And ECM and anti-radiation missiles, so I can go play Willem “Ironhand’s kinda my thing” Dafoe. :grinning:

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Did they actually cancel it? Last I heard it was on indefinite hold for multicrew.

Thanks for everyone’s input. Concerning complexity, a dev could do a B and C or D models which would cover USN and USAF ops without having to alter the 3D model much (no gun or slats). My choice for developer would be Leatherneck first, given how good the Mig-21bis is and them having modeled radar, AIM-7, and AIM-9 for the Tomcat. I said Mig-17 thinking that it’s not a far leap from the 15, but along with the 19 tend to be the forgotten fighters. The 17 and 19 had lots of victories during the Vietnam conflict.

So, imagine a Cunningham B model and a Ritchie / Olds D.

FWIW, I know some old crusty C, D, and E drivers who would love to help with the dev, if it would only happen.

Hawk, L-39, C-101 are all fun to fly. Just not as interesting conflict wise. Like Aginor said, probably a licensing issue. But then I think that Eagles, Tomcats, and Hornets were/are all MD/Boeing aircraft, and all currently operated.

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I like how you are thinking. While I agree with you that the Phantom is a big hole in the community, I long to have the MiGs. Especially the 17 and or 19. To me it comes down to pure fighting. The small MiGs will run circles around an F-4. I thinks they can be a Huge boost to EDs client base. As far as the Crusader goes, I would sell my soul for that!

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I have to admit that the MiG-19 might be pretty interesting to fly…

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F5 is coming so this is covered :wink:

They have made some odd choices in team and contracted out for DCS it seems and I too would love an F-4 Phantom and also an A-6 Intruder and glad to see others would like this too, big fan of the A-6 Intruder, Spectrum Holobyte did an early sim called Flight of the Intruder that was named after the Jake Grafton books by Stephen Coonts and also the film too, will never forget that SAM launch scene and all the warnings in the cockpit going ballistic … great scene and affirmed my love for the Aircraft and the crews that flew with it.

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Yes, I also love the A6 after reading that book - It would be a great module to have and/or shoot down in a Mig-21

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Flight of the Intruder (the book was awesome)…and the movie…was corny in spots…but I still loved it. I mean…it had Intruders in it - that satisfies 9/10 of my criteria… :smiley:

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