Heatblur F-14 and Forrestal Update

I never pretended my guides were anything more than “dumbed down quick-and-dirty checklists”. I don’t need to be reminded that I never said that. That being said… I’d just like to say something about the F-14 and make myself clear.

I don’t want my name to be ANYWHERE near a Tomcat guide. I was never involved in the development of this module either. Training material can be defined as pretty much anything at all, really. I understand it’s just a flight sim game, but the US government may not see it that way. Security clearances are hard enough as it is to obtain, The process is just as tedious as you mentioned: some guys are paid to find everything about you (and I mean e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g) since the day you were born. I see absolutely no point in even entertaining the idea of risking losing them for a hobby.

This is my livelihood we’re talking about here. Best job I ever had. I get to see incredible machines, work on awesome projects, meet people who have lived four lifetimes… I can’t see myself doing anything else.

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Chuck I hope you aren’t taking offense to any of this, bottom line it’s your call on doing any of this. No need to justify doing or not doing one. Thanks for making the others also.

And if you can get that Chucks Guide to Incarceration going, we’d appreciate it.

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I’ve got you covered here:

:wink:

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When I worked as a contractor for the USAF I got to see some amazing things, too. Things you generally wouldn’t get to do in IT.
For one thing, I got to touch a Titan IV sitting on the pad. :slight_smile: I think the list of IT support people who’ve been able to do that is VERY small!
Also, don’t believe most of those films that show gantries having these wide open spaces to walk (so the camera crew can move unhindered of course!) because the real things have lots of pipes and beams you can trip on or smack your head into and look super cluttered.

Yeah, you need to walk on eggshells some times with that because there are people whose job it is to pounce on anyone who makes a mistake and they have no feelings about it one way or another. If you’re innocent but lose your job over it, well, sucks for you, there’s no appeal.

Aaaaalright this deserves some discussion. Just because you’re trimming out pitch rate does not mean you’re in direct control of the jet’s flippers. Fly-by-Wire (FBW) does not equal digital controls or even a flight control system (FLCS), necessarily, and analog does not imply pure hydraulic or mechanical linkage. FBW just means that instead of the stick being linked to the flippers by physical means it sends an electric signal which makes an actuator move somewhere. Frequently that means the signal will go through a computer and be altered in some way to make the jet fly better (or be controllable, period) but that’s not NECESSARILY the case- IIRC early Boeing jetliners had electrical lines going to the control actuation systems (CAS) with the yoke receiving mechanical feedback based on sensed panel loads. In English, the pilot feels like he’s got a direct line to the flippers but it’s actually simulated by the yoke itself.

What most people associate with “FBW” is a FLCS much like the F-16 which is a fly by wire digital flight control system (EDIT 2: actually in earlier blocks, this was analog, later blocks went digital, more on this below). In essence you’re not ‘flying’ the jet, you’re providing commands to the flight computer which continuously moves the appropriate flippers the appropriate amount to try to meet the input you have commanded. The “on rails” feeling you get from something like the F-16 or Mirage comes partially from the “tracked statistic” of the FLCS which is nominally Z-axis acceleration (eyeballs up/down) limited by both the max safe number of Gs and a maximum safe angle of attack (alpha) in the pitch channel, generally scheduled at least by mach and altitude. There’s more to this though, in that because the pilot’s command passes through the flight computer, it can shape the aircraft’s response to that command which can be tuned to be fast, slow, efficient, gentle, whatever. With mechanical linkages or direct control the flight computer is your brain- you’ll make continuous little movements to adjust the response to your liking. With the digital FLCS the experience is typically a lot ‘cleaner’- it doesn’t need to be, but typically this is the design decision made for what are hopefully obvious reasons.

When we look specifically at the first 4th generation jet fighters (like the F-14 and F-15) we see an interesting version of this in that you have hydraulic flight controls augmented with mechanical or analog stability assists working in parallel with a FLCS providing “stability augmentation” (at least for the F-15, haven’t studied the 14 as much) known either as a stability augmentation system (SAS) or control augmentation system (CAS- I know. Same acronym as control actuation system. Welcome to engineering.) I actually don’t know if the F-15 CAS is analog or digital- @klarsnow? Now, the Eagle is perfectly capable of flying with the CAS off, and the jet will still try to trim for zero pitch rate, and furthermore, pulling on the stick is still commanding Z-axis acceleration. The hydraulic controls are set such that for a given mach/altitude the gearing hooked up to the stick will approximately give you X G’s per Y lbs of pull-back, while the pitch trim compensator will still try to set the jet’s pitch axis to hold 1G constant in level flight.

So the question is: if the controllers of the Eagle and the Falcon are both trying to do the same thing (here’s a stick input by the pilot, translate that into commanded Z-axis acceleration in the pitch channel, translate that into the right flipper deflections) why do the two feel so different in practice?

Well. That’s complicated.

But we can generalize it into two buckets: feedback and system bandwidth. Feedback refers to a control system adjusting its response as it goes based on data about how the response has performed so far. Bandwidth roughly means the speed at which a control system can adapt to change or disturbance. This is where things get a little complicated. On an all digital FLCS the flight computer is continuously adjusting its response based on input from the jet’s sensors. Generally, for at least acceleration and rotational rate data, this happens quickly enough that the limit of how fast the FLCS can adapt is the speed at which the servos can move the flippers (given that mach and altitude aren’t rapidly changing). That’s not necessarily the case with hydraulic systems. Take the F-15: the pitch gearing will adjust based on mach and altitude to try to meet X G per Y lb you pull, but it’s not actively changing to correct its response. The pitch trim compensator is trying to adjust to maintain X G per Y lb of pull, but it’s adjusting trim, not responding (accurately, at least) to disturbances. That’s the pilot’s job! In general the bandwidth (read: ability to respond) of the mechanical components of the hydraulic controls aren’t fast enough to get rid of disturbances, and you’re in for however of a bumpy ride the aircraft’s aerodynamics dictate. (See Edit 1)

But remember: the Eagle also has its CAS, which IS accepting digital feedback and CAN respond fast enough to remove disturbances… at least to the extent that the Eagle’s mixing logic allows the CAS to alter the hydraulic system.

So: What’s the point of this unnecessarily long rant on flight controls?

Circling back, the Su-27 feels “analog” because that’s how its FLCS is designed. If the DCS manual is to be believed, the Su-27 pitch channel accepts stick throw which is corrected to a consistent pull with aero data (similar to the F-15’s pitch gearing), which is augmented by the “autostabilizer” and the “damper”. The autostabilizer takes acceleration, alpha, and rotational rate data and prevents you from aggressively departing the aircraft. The damper takes rotational rate data and prevents you (or disturbances) from making things change too fast and then leading you on a trajectory to depart the aircraft. NOTE: there’s no “automatic trim compensator”.

When you flip the “cobra” switch (Automatic Stability Control Override) you bypass all of these- the stick throw to fin deflection becomes constant and the only thing adjusting input is your hand, allowing you to do things like purposefully depart the aircraft and then use your crazy pitch authority to bring it back, like in Pugachev’s Cobra.

So, long story short, the Su-27 feels wild and alive because hey, that’s how they designed it. FBW aircraft can be fun too. :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT 1: This is not entirely true- you can absolutely have stability augmentation and feedback using mechanical systems, but response tends to be slow. You either need a stable airframe, or an unstable airframe that departs s-l-o-o-o-w-l-y. The whole point of putting in FLCS systems in fighters is to enable relaxed in flight stability and unstable or neutraly stable airframes for agility.

EDIT 2: throughout this piece I’ve been referring to “Digital” and “Analog” flight control systems which isn’t exactly accurate- analog electronic flight controls can perform closed loop flight control just like digital ones, with the difference being primarily in the electronics for the purposes of what I’m explaining here.

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I love the F-14 Tomcat bird but I’m really hoping that ED expands the NTTR MAP and cover NAS Fallon - Miramar so on with reasonable detail.

More here - https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3153765&postcount=1

Its perfect with some sea area for carrier ops :pray: it happens!

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It’s been requested, repeatedly, it’s not planned and not likely

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…unless a third - party developer takes it on.

With that area outlined above, you should also include NAS Lemoore as well.

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You remember what happened last time we brought up Lemoore, right?

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Out of interest, what did happen? Don’t want to start anything just wondered as I have a friend who lives fairly close and I’ve driven past it

Man what a great post! thanks! Consider me schooled on FBW, CAS and SAS systems. The hog and harrier have a SAS too, don’t they?

Yeah, do tell, and it if does start something, leave vic out of it and take it out on me :boxing_glove:

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That’s very kind. Thanks. If this was reddit I would of been hung drawn and quartered for digging lol. Loving this!

About a year ago ED released a few screens of the Hornet where the ampcd showed it sitting on the ramp at NAS Lemoore. I was tipped off by a friend, and pointed it out.

Community managers pointed out that it was a place holder and not to read into it. I responded that Lemoore is a logical and frequently requested addition to the NTTR, and don’t put out images that can be misconstrued as teasers, then get defensive when the community and reacts negatively. I could have addressed it better.

There was push back.

Needless to say the addition of Lemoore, China Lake, Fallon, Miramar and San Clemente have all been lobbied for, and the consistent response has been “not planned”

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Cool thanks for filling the blanks. In fairness miramar would be high on my list as well… Maybe one day! I can wait.

NAS LeMoore, isn’t that where the marines do their thing? I had hoped for a lot saltier story on that account :stuck_out_tongue:

ED are dreaming of a “whole earth” map. That would open the door to adding things like Miramar, Fallon, Edwards, etc.

Lemoore is the Navy’s West Coast master base, all their hornets sans the growlers at Whidbey live there. The Marines are at MCAS Miramar and Yuma

Whoops…

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They do, but I’ll need to read more about exactly what they’re doing. The Hawg started out as an entirely manual/hydraulic flight control system and I don’t think it had the SAS system. I think the C model has something more akin to what’s on the Eagle (hydraulic augmented with digital systems).

It was added as part of the LASTE upgrade in the mid-90s. Previously it was joked that the A-10 had a built in AAA defense system: you simply let go of the stick and the aircraft would fly so erratically as to be impossible to hit.

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