New Tank Sim: Gunner, HEAT, PC!

@Harry_Bumcrack can i ask a seemingly silly question about etiquette in the tank crew

I have been Hammering steel beasts since i have been off work (@tempusmurphy we need to mP) and i very much enjoy playing the TC role and the gunner.

One thing i am interested to know is this.

If i am the gunner, ive called out ON a target of my own finding. Say a tank. Then the TC decides to spin my turret around to another threat before ive fired or hes cleared me to fire and it turns out to be a lower threat to our tank. Would you argue or just engage the lower threat?

And vise versa. I’m TC, called hot on a tank and slewed the turret for the gunner. Then he decides to say sod that and hits the apc next to it.

Who gets final say? What happens here? Clearly the TC has authority but how much can you override him before he kicks you outside?

I only ask as the gunner today on my M1A2 has been a right dick and i can’t work out why hes acting like his targets matter more than the ones I’m palm switching at

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@Victork2 I can only speak to my experience and I am pretty sure that this is how the Brit Army did it as well. Maybe the US does it different. From an ‘etiquette’ POV, as a gunner the TC outranks you. so you had better follow orders lest you find yourself on an insubordination or ‘fail to follow a lawful order’ charge :wink:

From a training and doctrine POV.

The TC selects the target and gives the order to fire… Always

The gunner may have spotted the target first, quite often this was the case because the gunners sight on the Leo AS1 was far superior to the TC’s (no hunter - killer capability).

So, for example, I am scanning for targets and see one - . Say I saw a T-64 and a couple of BMP’s I would probably lay onto the tank first and say “T-64, ON”. But, the TC may override that because the range might mean the BMP’s ATGMs would be the greater threat. From there it is as if the TC had seen the target first:

TC: “SABOT, T-64, ON”
Gunner: “ON” Even though you had aleady said that, and this is when I would lase and relay.
Loader: Pulls a SABOT round from the ready rack, loads it, grabs a second round and ‘cradles’ it, hits the Make/Break button and says “Loaded”
TC: “Fire”
Gunner: “Firing Now” pull the trigger on the now.

Because this example is a SABOT engagement it was what was termed a ‘commanders shoot’. Even though as gunner you would call “Target” for a hit, he would call any adjustments (e.g. aim top edge) and give the order to fire for every round. As the gunner you only did what the TC ordered. The loader would keep loading SABOT and reporting 'Loaded" until the TC said “Stop, target destroyed”.

With HESH, HEAT and Co-Ax; it was a “gunners shoot”. Once the initial order to fire had been given I would call out “Target” or apply any corrections (e.g. “left half target, add 4” (mils)), and fire everytime the loader reported “loaded” until the TC said “Stop, target destroyed”… or rarely “Stop, relase, relay” due to the engagement taking longer than a few rounds and this was necessary and then “Go on”

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@Harry_Bumcrack
Pretty much the same way we did it in the Danish army.

I’d like to add, if the gunner spots two targets close together, say a truck and a tank, he should call out the biggest threat. Or any high value target, like a bridgelayer for instance.
Ultimately though, the TC chooses what to engage, there is no time for discussions among the crew, only battle drill. Only if your in a hulldown position (Edit: turret down, or hide position was what I meant) and unseen, the crew could take the time and plan it out a bit, before moving in to firing position.

During a SABOT engagement, we had a series of correction for the Gunner to go through, if no hit(flash) were observed. All without the TC needing to say anything. Of course TC could choose to break off or give corrections at anytime.
Otherwise it was supposed to go like this IIRC:

  1. shot - Lase and shoot
  2. shot - Lase, shoot again (the thinking here was, the range is probably bad)
  3. shot - ½ mil down, shoot
  4. shot - 1 mil up, shoot.

If this didnt produce a hit, it was probably about high time to punch the smokes, back the hell out of there and get in to the alternate position.

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Interesting.

We would only ever re-lase and/or reapply lead if the range had changed significantly or we and/or the target had changed speed and/or direction - and this was always the TC’s call…

I forgot to say above that the TC could over-ride the gunner at any time as well. e.g. I called “Right 8, add half target” the TC might say “Stop, Right 8 add 6, Go on”.

We would probably be doing that after the 2nd SABOT missed :slight_smile:

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Yeah, I’m quite convinced it would be a bad idea to hang out in the same spot for 4 shots! Odds are the guy you’re shooting at, is not alone…
I think the second correction Lase again, then shoot, were added in after using only the mil corrections, for some years. The expectation i believe, was the re-lase and shoot, had a better chance of producing a hit.

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Makes sense. It was actually a question I asked on my Gunners course - “Why not re-lase for a miss?”

IIRC the reply I got was that it was (marginally) quicker for the gunner to apply a manual correction and that there was a higher probability of getting your second round on target than re-lasing.

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Yeah, I think our MasterGunners reasoning was, that you could end up chasing your own tail, due to the natural spread of the sabot rounds, and the gun.
I’m not sure the definitive best way to do it have ever been found, it’s most likely still being discussed in tank unit bars, all over the world :beers: :grin:

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They were the words I was looking for :slight_smile:

I would say 100%

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This is fascinating stuff guys.

How long does it take to re-lase? If you saw the round go high, how long would it take to make a mental calculatiom and a manual correction? A second? Or longer?

It is counterintuitive but it is actually quicker to manually correct than re-lase,

To re-lase you have to recentre the reticle on the target, lase and then re-lay onto the target (even with stab on it wasn’t perfect at realigning the reticle and a small manual correction had to be made).

To do it manually, simply observe your fall of shot and put that over the target (pic below explains it better, I hope):

Over time as the TC’s confidence in the gunner grows, they would just let you get on with it. I wouldn’t even say “left 2.5, drop 2”. I would just say “left and drop” and have applied the correction in about as much time as it took to say it. As soon as I heard “Loaded”, it would be “Firing Now”.

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This is frigging awesome, I was looking up Smock Psychological for my next warrie and came across this:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Australian_English_military_slang

I no longer have to (self) translate for you guys. If I ever use a term that you don’t understand, you will probably find it here :slight_smile:

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I’ve been tooling round the range using an Xbox controller setup. It was a quick blast today and of course i didn’t read the manual. I’m liking what I am seeing so far.

Is anyone else using a controller? If so, is everything configured that needs configuring or is there something I need to change?

All pointers gratefully received.

“Tanks” in advance. :rofl:

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I struggled with the controller when it first came out, however i havent tried since the updated turret movement was implemented

Ill give it a try tomorrow and I’ll let you know

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Sorry, strictly a mouse and keyboard guy here…

Even with Console to PC ports (e.g. Jedi Fallen Order) that ‘should’ be easier/better with a controller.

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I am too. Or was, until my oldest discovered he ‘really needed’ Farming Simulator 22. Playing it with M&KB was pretty miserable, but a $20 Xbox controller made it smooth, running a front loader or logging machine about as fast as IRL, and best of all allowed me to play it while lying on the living room couch drinking a beer, which is by far the best way to do farming. I’ll have to give GHPC a try with it, because I find the acceleration/braking and turning a little jarring with just the KB. Surely the mouse still rules for aiming though, right?

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The crazy thing is that I have had a controller for years, but have hardly used it.

I guess the muscle memory that I have developed over the years with KB and Mouse means it just feels weird?

I have heard that the gunners controls for the Challenger were designed with the ‘Nintendo Generation’ in mind. Looking at it I can beleive it:

For me and GHPC. Yeah the mouse is king for aiming, but I use my Joystick (left handed) for vehicle control.

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I’ve been using the controller for non flying/driving stuff for a while, usually anything that uses WSAD keyboard commands. Aiming isn’t any worse/less accurate than mouse and for twitch shooters like CoD/Warzone I’m better with it.

Edit: I’m not a “Nintendo” gen BTW, more old bugger. :slightly_smiling_face:

With all the commands on the tank, turret and having to drive, I thought having the two joysticks would work quite well, though I may have to try the mouse/keyboard and see how it plays out.

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Didn’t mean to imply you were, apologies if it came across like that, merely an observation on the controls for Challenger tanks.

Guys I know that had been on exchange with Chieftain Regts (also thumb-stick) always said the controller was really sensitive and it wasn’t a good idea to get on the ■■■■ the night before heading to the range.

Only you Brits would use a thumb controller when the rest of the world went with a ‘yoke’ or joystick :stuck_out_tongue:

Even using my warthog stick left handed I find that between it and the mouse I have 90% of controls covered. It is only some of the rarely used commands that are still keyborad only.

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Whyy move both arms when you can use a thumb and hold a brew at the same time.

Cannons arent the only thing that are stablised. Tea holding arms are as well :joy:

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I now have a vision of Guy Martin as a tank gunner :laughing:

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