If it doesn’t fit in your hand, it really doesn’t qualify.

That said, males have come with preattached fidget spinners since the dawn of time…


Well this is an important question, and like all important questions can only be answered if we understand the history behind the controversy, so that we can better understand where we are today.Fortunately for you I have been a keen student of this strange written dance and will be happy to relate the forgotten history of this eternal conflict.

To fully grasp the beginnings of these episodic jousts we must go back to early 1900’s France. There we will meet an enigmatic middle aged man named Aigle Dynamique. Monsieur Dynamique was the leading creator of simulated papier aeroplanes based on real aircraft currently being built by the burgeoning French aircraft industry. In fact some would argue that he was the only “full real” creator of these papier aeroplanes, but we will get to that in a moment.

The ageless argument began in 1910 with Mssr. Dynamique’s announcement of the recreation of the Breguet Type 1 in papier aeroplane form. Well I don’t need to tell you how exciting this was, considering the Type 1’s importance in the fast growing world of aviation!

Breguet Type 1

At this time many of the papier aeroplane enthusiasts would write into a forum on the back pages of the popular newspaper of the time Le Petite Parisien. They would discuss the merits of their hobby and the excitements and disappointments of the providers of these papier aeroplanes.

As you can imagine sometimes their passion would become quite heated! It particularly came to a boil in 1909 when Mssr. Dynamique announced his intention to shift his focus away from the papier aeroplanes that he had built his name on, and instead start building origami blimps! Well many members of the community felt that the origami industry had been well served for hundreds of years and saw no reason to divert resources to it from the precious development of the model of the Breguet Type 1. And so the seeds of a controversy were born!

Two camps were formed, and would argue in the forums of Le Petit over the course of months about the relative merits of the business practices of Dynamique’s boutique endeavor.

Le Defenders De Fold, or as we would know them - The Defenders of the Fold, felt that any discussion of why the company did what it did was wasted since no one could really know how those decisions got made. He was labeled enigmatic for a reason!

La Negatives De Nancy, so named after a prominent forum member who hailed from Nancy, were never comfortable with the “unknowable” and other assorted enigmas. They argued that business practices have been around for centuries and there must, Must, they said, be a reason for the delays, the loss of focus, and the strange marketing of the new aeroplane model.

Things came to a head in the early summer of 1913. Mssr. Dynamique chose to bring his new model to the 1913 World Expo in Ghent. There, everyone hoped, they would get to see a picture of the new model and anticipation built to a fever pitch.

But, unbeknownst to the faithful, Aigle chose to show his new creation to only a select few journalists of the hobby, and to add insult to the injury, only chose to show it with a stereoscope, a very boutique and not very widespread technology of the time.

So the only real content that the long suffering lovers of the Type 1 got was a strangely cropped image of the model in Le Petit that did little to help Le Defenders and added fuel to La Negatives that the unknowable was bad for their hobby

Well, Merde. The forum of Le Petit was a hotbed of back and forth discussion with no end and no satisfying resolution. One of the more prominent members of Le Defenders was the Arch-Duke Ferdinand of Austria, who had developed a love of the papier aeroplanes and vigorously shouted down any and all of the Nancys under a nom de guerre. Alas, many Serbian nationals were also members of the Nancys and could not stand this affront on top of the ignomy of what they saw as tyrannical rule, and the seeds of a World War were born in the folds of a piece of papier.

In the 1920’s many parents and the administrators of schools realized the ironic silly-ness of teaching children that paper airplanes were the cause of World War 1, and covered up that part of the story. It is known by only a few dedicated researchers and told in the back rooms of electronic forums that serve the same function of Le Petit back in those turbulent times. Irony indeed.

The original photo from the World Expo thought lost to the World War with the Stereoscope removed

Mudspike 2017 in Numbers

This is right up there with the Hitler running ED video. I enjoyed the read.


Post of the year.


LOL, Bravo sir!


I second that motion! All
In favour say I.


Ladies & Gentlemen - it gives me great pleasure to make this prestigious award.



Umm so thank you all, I didn’t know this badge was a thing.

I don’t expect to, or want to, hold it long in this esteemed company.

Thanks to Chris, Fearless, Fridge, and Troll. Where else but here would I put such a crazy nonsense.

Back to to your regularly scheduled Harrier-ing.


It wasn’t, I just saw @Navynuke99’s comment above, agreed with it, and thought it would be a fun badge for us all to have (plus you can use it as a title as well in your profile). :slight_smile: :mudspike:


So in the ED forums I saw talk of the targeting systems for the AV8B NA. I was sort of expecting either a ground radar or a Lightening-like pod - is that not the case? I think the Zeus was saying the NA just uses an optical targeting, and that it isn’t quite like the A10C with it’s SPI’s and SOI’s - anyone know?


So the NA has no radar. Its skill set is very much like the Mirage’s. CCIP, CCRP, ,Rockets, and LGB’s with a Man in the Loop.

@near_blind I think mentioned earlier in the thread that Razbam has plans to upgrade it to a Plus model when the ground radar tech is finished.


gimme a tick, brb


I found the AV-8 Harrier Tactical Manuals here:

Looking at the ED thread here:

…it looks like RAZBAM are targeting (heh) the references of the public info from ~2002 ish. Fascinating stuff so far.


Ah, ok. So the AV-8B N/A is the updated version for Night Attack (NVG, NAVFLIR, LITENING II TPOD etc., the one used during Desert Storm) but doesn’t have the APG-65 ground radar and is just pure optical targeting, with even the targeting pod more an added extra?

The Plus or AV-8B Radar (ground radar APG-65) is the All Weather updated variant, which RAZBAM plan a bit later with ED (as same sort of radar used in F/A-18C)?

Then manuals I linked to above, describes the radar use, so must be the plus I guess.

(I sort of know the UK GR5/7/9 variants better, the USMC stuff is a bit of mystery still).


And Thrustmaster has the Control stick part of that covered. Going to be very good times.

I would love to see them make a throttle that has a detachable grip as well. Seems it could be lucrative for them (I have no idea if that’s true but I want it to be) and would be great (expensive) for us. Just attach the grips for the module you are flying.

I am also excited to fly a “simpler” model first and then move up to a glass cockpit version later. Sounds limiting I know. But I can also sell it to myself as being like going from the Su-25A to the -T. I am not ashamed to admit that I get intimidated sometimes by all the MFD pages in a module and it can put me off from learning it.


Pretty much. The B+ basically came about when the USN decided to upgrade all their F/A-18s to the C model, which uses the upgraded/redesigned APG-73 radar. Observing the Navy was suddenly flush with APG-65s (the radars on the F/A-18A), the USMC scooped them up, as they had a bunch of F/A-18As. I don’t know exactly the chain of events, but somehow McD was commissioned to start putting them into the nose AV-8Bs to make them all weather bombers, and give them expanded (albeit relatively limited) air to air capacity. The European AV-8B customers (Spain and Italy), caught whif and thought it was a smashing idea, and further funded development to include AIM-120s and ideally otherstuff that didn’t pan out.

Keep scrolling. Generally the manuals will keep information for all in service aircraft at the time of printing. The one you posted covers ARBS et. al. below the APG-65 Section.


Ah got it, I think. So the Angle Rate Bombing System (ARBS) is the line of sight optical thing, with the N/A using ‘Dual Mode Tracker’ (DMT) rather than radar, which sounds like a image-based visual targeting system that is built in as a camera in the nose, rather than a ‘big eye’ separate targeting pod. So maybe LITENING II to go find things, and then the ARBS DMT to go view and lock (using a laser or just image contrast) and then the putting the thing on the thing can happen.


In fact @fearlessfrog, I am not sure you know this, and I don’t recommend you dig through that 149 post thread, but Razbam originally posted the version to build as a poll and the GR. 7/9 won. There was much rejoicing across the pond until they came back and changed it to the NA due to the targeting pods and weapons fit being too much for them to tackle.

Almost a British Harrier…


So close! :slight_smile:

Actually, I’m like you, in that I’d prefer an early variant first, just to get my feet wet (repeatedly) and then get more buttons to press later on. I don’t think an AIM-120 variant was ever a good idea anyway. :wink:

I’m firmly in the ‘Church of Systems’ school of flight simming though, where gameplay, drama and fun come a sad third place compared to (1) Learning what all the buttons do, (2) Wallowing in acronyms and (3) Doing stuff.


@Fridge and I were joking in TS the other night that we are both excited for the Harrier because we realized that 80-90% of our flight time is pattern practice and whats better than VTOL pattern practice? Plus boats!