'Tort de clatite' or just pancake !? ( To VR, or Not to VR? )

summer season is slowly moving to its final days.

so I would like to know yor opinion on the future path of simming…

is it VR with VR controllers, or is it pancake with physical hardware controllers?

in case of VR, would you recommend your HMD or you would go for something else and why

thx :slight_smile:

Interesting question.

VR with physical controllers works great for me. I have not done 2D simming for many years now :astonished: and do not feel a need to try it again.

A side note: I have been away from my PC for more than two weeks. I actually have not really missed VR & simming and when putting my G2 on yesterday evening I realised that the resolution still needs to improve. I mean the G2 already IS good but wearing it afresh felt like not wearing my glasses if you see what I mean.

Good to still have something to be looking forward to :+1:

I had mostly drifted away from simming at the end of the microprose era. Il2 1946 was the last one I spend time with.

Then I got to try a friend’s oculus dev kit. It made me want to puke and gave me a headache, except in a sim (I think it was DCS or elite that I tried). I was sold.

Not long therafter I bought a CV1, a HOTAS, every module and piece of both il2 and dcs I could. I built the most ridiculously expensive computer I ever have.

VR and a HOTAS all the way for me. Currently on an HP G2 (with a replaced OG cable) and a 3080ti to drive it. It is bliss. I don’t want nuff’n else.



2D is soooo 1980’s :wink: :wink: :wink: for cockpit sims anyway, IMO.

But, it has its place and those that still prefer 2D. We can have both. 2D should always perform better as there’s less for the system to do.

Youtube content is hard to watch when recorded in 3D for instance; I’m watching it in 2D so a 2D display makes sense; the image isn’t stable. I imagine the day (likely soon) that there will be YouTube3D - the content is 3D so you watch it with your VR gear on. Shoot, likely there already is something out there…

Some say in VR you are less competitive but that’s not my thing (if it was I’d push for a separate ‘VR Division’, maybe?).

And, IMHO, doing any ‘work’ in 3D is a pain right now (writing code, emails, creating/testing missions in DCS, etc). But we’re not talking about “work” :slight_smile:

Agreed. I LOVED the G2 when I first put it on (~6 months ago?), compared to the O+. “Wow, I can see again!” was the response. It’s wearing off. But I won’t go back. Now I want MOAR! Wider FOV, that eye-tracking thing. I’m never happy.

Oh, and a 6DOF motion platform would be nice. Fortunately for my wallet I don’t have the room. My Haptic Feedback thing helps, a lot…

Just fired up DCS last night (after several weeks away for, err, other distractions) and it was amazing. Again. Got jumped by some bad guys while enroute to break their stuff. Did a dumb thing (overloaded, trying to get that shot I just knew I could make) on a MIG-21. The Haptic feedback allowed me to stay on the ‘edge’ in the Hornet, without having to look at anything (cuzz I was looking UP and BACK mostly). Great experience. I need to refine this system.

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Yes, both because the better resolution offered by a screen (but with a G2 that is *almost no longer an issue) and, most importantly because the unnatural headmovements TrackIR allows on a 2D screen. Owlnecking and such.
However, VR allows you to make use of another part of your sensory organs, a little known one called proprioception. It’s the sense of how your body is posed. the 1on1 relationship between virtual head and physical head position allow you to get a very instinctive, instant feel for the position of what you are looking at and its spatial relationship with you.
Tanking, dogfighting, shootin’guns, landing, things like that are far easier in VR imo.


Ya know, I’ve wondered about this: In 2D I find it harder to initially spot another plane at a distance, than in VR, on my Huuuuuge monitor at 4k, yet harder to specifically ID it in VR, though with the G2 it is as you say getting closer.


I could copy and paste everything @schurem wrote here. He speaketh the truth.
However, the last few weeks I’ve had some problems associated with VR. It looks like it is a software problem, but I’m still investigating. It had me reinstalling the OS and everything, to solve the problems.
My point is this, I love VR and I agree with everything @schurem told you. But… With VR I feel you add a layer of complexity to the already complex art of flightsimming. There are more than a few things you will need/want to do to squeeze the extra performance out of your PC. If you are more of a console gamer that just want to push the ON switch and go play, you will be dissapointed.
That said, VR is the best thing that has happened to flightsimming, according to the gospel of the Troll.


Yup, another ‘attachment’: Keyboard + Mouse + joystick + throttle + button box + headset + ___ + ___…with the all the associated “Inner Workings & Hidden Movements” to go along with them. I hesitate to say it but, sometimes it really is almost like work.

And the above is why I’m likely to over-spend on my personal method of escapism for the duration; niche within a niche as some have said. Million years ago it was a book.

Some distance away from ‘twitch games’ on the phone screen.

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I remember playing Pong on the TV set (1976-ish, +/-). But it wasn’t an obsession (there were other things to do). Seems I’ve regressed.

Random Musing Alert…I’m kind of amazed at what “my” generation has seen. The arse-end of the Baby Boom (1955-1965):

No AC in the house/car/school (in the southern US! - you didn’t know any better), no home computers, B&W TV’s (that weighed 50 pounds! - my grandparents thought it made us ‘kids’ weaker), girlfriend wanting a looooong cord on the phone (that was on the wall) so she could have privacy (stretched down the hall, around two corners, under her bedroom door…).

My dad’s generation seemed almost afraid of these computer things. Ours saw the transition between it all, therefore experiencing - and embracing - both. Okay, not everyone embraced it.

And for decades I’ve wondered what will come along that ‘scares’’ me, technologically anyway, like it did him. Looking at you, Internet :thinking:


Good opinions guys, keep em coming.

Is this widespread or the native steam vr headsets are more imune to these constant configuration problems ?


Haven’t we all…? :wink:

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I wouldn’t say the problems that I recently encountered are widespread.
I have used two Oculus headsets and one WMR (Reverb G2).
In the beginning, Oculus provided a really user friendly entry into VR, while WMR required more tinkering from the user. This difference has been erased. But, you will find yourself editing the windows registry, tuning the BIOS even and wanting faster CPU/GPU/RAM once you strap the headset to your noggin.
Like @jross says,

Sometimes it is a lot of work to get it right.
This isn’t for everybody. VR isn’t as streamlined as getting just another monitor.
I feel that the payoff that is the VR experience is worth it, even if I had my doubts these last couple of weeks, when I’ve been banging my head against a virtual wall of cleverly hidden problems.
I’ve had a VR headset, in one form or another, since 2016 and this is by far the most trouble I’ve ever had with it.
Hey… Computers! Considering they are inherently logical machines, they sure seem illogical at times…! :wink:


I Feel for you. It smells like a driver, or something similar, but I’m no expert. I’ve never gone ‘back’ as far as you have but nearly so (uninstall/reinstall WMR and SteamVR). It worked in my case.

Bulldozing the OS and resurrecting it! Ick.

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I’ve made my case ad nauseum for VR with VR controllers in certain circumstances. This configuration taught me an airliner and it brought to nearly complete preparation to learn helicopters. As in, I am convinced I would have flown the thing perfectly well without an instructor. (There’s much more to that but I haven’t yet figured out how to put the distinction to words). Mostly, though, I do what others do (at least in combat)–VR with HOTAS controls. Lately, I’ve grown a bit sick of VR. The years of isolation and sweat behind the mask has made the effort begin to feel more like work and less like a hobby. So recently I’ve gone back to TrackIR and pancake. ARMA and BMS are the only sims I play this way and it is only a temporary break. VR will forever be my preference. But I will say that the comfort and clarity of 2D makes coming back seem more like a lateral choice and less like a step backwards.


As someone from a similar generation that post hit home!

Same. It occurred to me (during that little action I mentioned above, with the Haptic thing) that it’s about translating the experience to someone? My vocabulary is insufficient. A 2D video translates directly or nearly so, but not so the VR one. Anyway.

Pancake all the way, and yes I know I’m in the minority.

First reason is for me personally, my vestibular system REALLY does not like my visual inputs not matching up. VR needless to say can generate a lot of this. Ironically riding along with a friend doing acro for real, no issues.

Second is that currently the fidelity you can get with either a dome screen or multiple screens combined with true to life physical controls is unmatched. Yes that is vastly out of what I’m willing to spend on a hobby, but if you really truly want all the immersion, that’s the top tier.

Third I don’t want to feel like I’m there to a certain extent. To be completely honest I’ve spent enough of my life around violent death, that for anything combat related (even flight sim’ng) I am absolutely fine being in a fidelity that decreases the immersion.

Lastly, I personally don’t want to be that immersed in what I’m doing. It is a hobby that I have engaged in at this point for over 30 years, but it still takes a back seat to spending time with my wife (who I have been with for over 20 years at this point). Pancake even with TrackIR and headphones, I can still very easily be aware of what is going on around me, and not miss anything. I know far to many people (of both genders) who spend the majority of their relationship not paying attention to their spouse and then wondering how they grew apart.


Exactly, but which one… :man_shrugging:

That’s the word for it, alright!

That’s an honest opinion!
Let’s not forget that TrackIR and a good monitor has its advantages and still is incredibly fun! In some ways I would prefer a big curved widescreen or maybe a multi monitor setup, just to be able to go to town on building a cockpit with all the physical switches, buttons, levers and everything.


I do have a Rift S but I still spend most of my time in 2D, for many of the reasons @jenrick posted and also because of the visual quality (I am not rich enough to afford a 30xx graphics card or a better VR headset).
I am sure that VR will get there eventually, but for me not just yet.

At the beginning, Oculus promised that the VR will be cheap, like 300 gold (maybe in US it is like that but not in EU) .

Or even they speculated that it will be bundled with games. I understood it like I will buy HL: Alyx and will get VR for free :smile: and it is the other way around :upside_down_face:
Or I just need to look at it from different perspective - it is HL: Alyx for 1000! gold and I get the VR for free…

So for me it is this question ‘is it worth for me to invest into it?’. Will I get my money back? Is it worth to pay e.g. the premium for Index / Vive and it will save me some troubles? (probable not because I saw some quality issues with Indexes in some reviews of long time users).

I agree that it is super-jective (word from one yt video about VR headset and the super-sub-sub-jective experience with these things). And probably there is no good argument to own it or not to own it.

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